The terrorists have won....

Maybe I should have quantified my comment by saying those who *deliberately* target civilians are those I consider terrorist scum though I can appreciate some people don't see a moral difference between those civilians killed deliberately by Al Qaeda, or those killed unintentionally whilst our forces try to hit a military target. Personally I differentiate (its like the difference between involuntary manslaughter and murder IMHO), but I suppose they're just as dead afterwards - still victims.

 

Steve and Will, I'm sorry you don't agree with me. If you want to label me a left-wing liberalist then feel free, I am one and proud of it. That you (Steve) say it in such a derogatory way, as if it's a "bad thing" is disappointing .

Give me one good example where fighting terrorism with violence has yielded long term results. There aren't any.

In case anyone got the impression that I was condoning terrorist action in my previous post then you misunderstood. As a pacifist I wouldn't ever condone violence, and I don't think any sane human being would suggest that what happened in Beslan was legitimate action. However, I do understand why they (terrorists in general) are doing it and that's a completely different thing.

Another thing which is undisputable is that terrorism arises from bad politics. It's an effect, not a cause. Unless people understand the cause and rectify it then terrorism will always be around.

Apart from the fact that it's impossible to "nuke them all" as one might perhaps have been able to do with a country that one was at war with, to think that way is to totally misunderstand the problem. The more violence that the US meets out in the middle east, the more terrorists join up to Al-Queda. George W. Bush is a one man Al-Queda recruitment team. That's why his policies are making the world a much less safe place, contrary to what he believes. Ditto Putin's policies in Chechnya. Ditto Israel's policies.

Michael.

 

I'm *not* sorry I disagree with you Michael , indeed I feel its good that we don't all follow one way of thinking - if we did things would IMHO be worse, neither the left nor right has all the answers, particularly with regards to terrorism. As for labelling you, well you kind of labelled yourself there didn't you, with no help from me

We're not poles apart here I feel, I also understand why the Chechens want independence and feel so strongly about it, but it still in no way at all justifies what they did - it seems you think that that as well, but that didn't come across so well from your initial post.

I feel the causes are much more complex than just our flawed foreign policies, its also down to the governments of the Middle East (the oil wealth has hardly filtered down much has it, leaving most people in the Middle East in poverty, with little or no education), then we have the misuse and abuse of religion to pursue purely political goals (religious zealotry is far more powerful than purely political zeal IMHO).

If someone can be truly convinced that they'll go to heaven for a life of paradise for all eternity if they blow themselves and a few infidels up, then thats so much more powerful and motivating than just 'it serves our cause for independence'. Orders from God are more important than orders from any man to a religious person. The problems we face with terrorism are exacerbated by the ability of people to convince others that their will is also the will of God, and I'm not exactly sure what we in the west can do to influence the mad mullahs and sheikhs away from doing this, and the Middle Eastern governments seem more concerned with their own wealth than spending money to educate their people to see through the hatred of some of their own religious leaders

Terrorism is a 2 way street, we can do things in terms of our foreign policy to help reduce popular support for the terrorist cause (and that doesn't have to be 'give them what they want', we can do things to help without giving in), but I feel as long as their is religion and people trying to use it for their own gains, there will be a minority of militants always trying to cause trouble.

The key is doing things so that this hardcore minority has little or no popular support - thats where our foreign policy can act as an influence, but changing our foreign policy won't make Islamic terrorism just go away overnight. The religion itself will have to moderate itself rather more first IMHO

 

Don't know if anyone saw the 'Hamburg Cell' film on C4 the other night - I though it quite a good attempt to get inside the thinking of the terrorists. But the best irony was the fact that they espoused this hatred of the materialism, wordliness and 'loose' morals of the west - showing disgust and fear when surrounded by semi-naked Florida beach girls, but dreaming of their 20 virgins each on arrival in paradise....

 

I saw part of it but I found that I kept of thinking about their state of mind. For example, when they were boarding the planes, I personally would have been a nervous wreck and I know I wouldn't have been able to go ahead. Killing others in perhaps self defence or for even for sheer hatred is one thing but killing yourself? No way, if I had time to think about my actions, like they did.

Anyway, only 20 virgins?

 

I didn't see the film or the particular Florida beach girls in question. Some of those American women can appear pretty frightening. I think it's an obesity thing.

I read that the 20 virgin thing was a mis-translation and that actually, they get 20 olives. Boy, will they be pissed off. If it truly is 20 virgins, however, it makes me wonder what the female suicide bombers believe they're going to get.

BTW my statements on left wing liberals in no way detracts from my opinion of their capabilities in the area of forum running. Some of my best friends are LWLs.

 

I thought it was one of the best post Sept 11th documentaries I've seen – I really liked the way it made no moral statement or judgement. It was remarkably un-propaganda like. I would have liked to see it be a bit longer (perhaps a two episode mini-series), and have a bit more time to get into their heads.

Tony.

 

The one I heard is that Osama gets to Paradise and is admitted by Allah. The first person he meets is George Washington, who says, "Sir! How
dare you seek the destruction of the country I fought long and hard for!" and proceeds to give Osama the thumping of his life. As Osama picks himself up and seeks to retrieve his various teeth, along comes Thomas Jefferson, who says, "Sir! I poured my intellect into this great nation and you seek to pull it all down!" and proceeds the thump the living daylights out of him. 68 distinguished Americans and 68 sets of bruises later, Osama turns to Allah and says, "But this was never meant to be!" "It's not my fault that you goofed the translation," says Allah, "I always promised that you'd be greeted in Paradise by 70 Virginians."

 

I take hope from this...

There is always hope. When we give up on that we really have lost and we really are lost.

Leading Arab journalist attacks radical Islam

Perhaps we should add another option to our list.

 

are the yank women big steve?? never been there? all look good on tv, but alas....

the women will get 20 dildos one for every orifice.

hmm I square a bit with Michael's views, they must be hurt big style to go into a school and kill, or perhaps just plain bad.
there is more than meets the eye, the leaders of the group, the die hards bullying the sign ups perhaps, too.
but its still despite the pain they have had, inexcusable to kill innocent kids, totally disgusting and reprehensible.
sure attack governments and the military.
apparently, islam forbids killing women and children, I don't know much about it tho' and have not read the koran.
US foreign policy ****s the world big style. again and again.the more bush opens his gob 'enemies of freedom....yaaa yaa yaaa, ' the more he pours petrol on the very fire he is trying to put out.

Interesting, just heard on the news the ruskies are going to take pre-emptive strikes against terrorism anywhere in the world going down the George Bush and Israeli route it seems, time to fuel the fires of global terrorism more methinks. Wecome Russia, prepare for more attacks than before....oh dear....

(is it me or does Russia have an abnormal proportion of gorgeous looking young women? phoor)