Three lunatics in the asylum

Graham,

the delay in the sub output did seem to benefit the recordings that I tried that were live performances, whether classical or jazz based.

The difference was really more of a matter of taste rather than a definate improvement from my perspective, but then I am hardly qualified to comment on the realism of these recordings It may be that a seasoned concert goer would consider the affect to be night and day.

With studio based based music however, I just felt something was not quite right. It's a comparison I can easily do in the future so will get others opinions as and when.

I don't know if Titian's crossover provides a delay to the satellites, maybe he could tell us. Possibly it may go some way to explaining why good subs, from the likes of Rel's ST range, seem to benefit classical music in particular. The use of these in a normal two channel set up will almost always result in a delay, which, along with the increased depth, may explain the common perception of increased scale and soundstage depth.

 

Graham, Merlin,

Nice discussions that could have been avoided by me if I thought of asking Mr. Nestorovic before 2 minutes ago. Sorry, but that's Titian: sometimes very very very very late. But in italy they say: better late then never!

So hear is the answer:
Mr. Nestorovic said that the whole system IS time alligned (1 m in front of the satellites). He said this discussion about time allignments was already there 20 years ago and 20 years ago he has done it. All the components (crossover and drivers) are especially made for the time allignment.

 

Titian,

Reading about the System 16A is interesting. Could you ask Mr Nestorovich how he achieves time alignment to an old simpleton like me

The instructions seem to recommend that the front edge of the subwoofer should be placed 18" from the satellite, the sub being 24" deep, that makes a total of 42". This appears to be somewhat less that the distance that you are using.

In addition, I understand that the satellites receive a direct signal without passing through the crossover. The only way I can see to time align the subs output to the satellites is to delay the sats output, effectively to get them to wait for the bass to arrive. It is not possible for the crossover to output the sub signal before it even gets it

Accepting that there may be some way of achieving this that I am unaware of by using Nestorovic's recommended setup (although this flies in the face of what I have learnt), it would still appear that with your current positioning, there would be an inherent 3ms delay

 

Mr. Nestorovic told me months ago that for the concrete version the distance between wall and satellites (back side) sould be approx. 2m (1.9...). I think the specs that you have are the old ones.

I will call Nestorovic next week about the achievement of the time alignment. I don't want to disturb him now since in the laast 3 weeks I called him nearly every day and I believe he could get annoyed about hearing me so often.
I will certainly come back with his answer either here or with a pm.

 

Thanks for that Titian,

An explanation would be useful as for the life of me I cannot see how on earth the system can be correctly time aligned even if the subs and sats are seperated by the recommended distance.

I just don't get how a 150hz transient that starts over 2 meters further away, can effectively catch up a 1khz transient before it reaches the listening position. After all, they are both travelling at the speed of sound.

yours confused

 

But, Merlin, does it have to? Assuming that the speakers are 3M away and the subwoofers 6M away, the time difference of two waves arriving at your ears and having left the speakers simultaneously is about 0.009 sec. Can you really hear this sort of difference, bearing in mind that the space differences between members of an orchestra can be much greater (if you're at the side of a concert hall, the distance between the double basses and the first violins can be of the order of 10M)? I've never noticed any problems with this. Or is there something I'm not understanding?

 

Tones

does it matter? I don't know is the answer, I am just interested to hear how the time alignment is acheived, as it sounds impossible in the Nestorovic setup

What I can say with some certainty, is that adding a 0.003 sec delay to the output of the sub is very noticeable, having an effect across the spectrum. Properly time aligned, everything snaps into focus. This started because I found that the lack of delay to the mains, and hence the lack of proper time alignment, actually increased my enjoyment of classical works but resulted in clearly compromised reproduction of my style of music

There is certainly a difference between the two settings, and as Titian has come back with the reply that, yes they are time aligned, I would like to know how. How do you get the three soundwaves to arrive at the same time (which makes a difference) without the use of delays in the satellites crossover. In my confessed ignorance, this seems to defy the laws of physics.

 

In the satellites there are crossovers!!!
The external crossover is not used but the internal yes (switch on). I think I wrote it in a post before that I am using the external crossover only for the subs and for the satellites I am using the internal ones. Actually Nestorovic now recommends to use only the internal ones but I cannot control the gains between the low and high since neither the NA1 nor the Krell have a volume control so I use the exsternal one.

I will nevertheless ask Mr. Nestorovic. What I understood the time alignment is not only done with the crossover but also with the different materials used in the drivers (???)

 

Graham, the fact that the cellos or also other groups of instruments are not so forward as other systems is not because of the loudspeakers. That depends on the amplification, especially from the phono stage. It is a pity we didn't hear the Leehman's silver cube because everything becomes so more crispy and forward to you but, as I wrote several times, I wan't the music as if I were sitting in the 7th-10th row of the concert hall with lot of ambience. I don't want to hear all the groups at 2 meters distance (direct music). In this point my system is different to most of the others because nearly everybody wants the music to be as sharp and crispy as possible (clinically sharp I would say): I don't want it like that.

I didn't listen any more to the Leehman's phono stage because it was for me too sharp, the cellos were so near and present that I could touch them! In that sense the Groove had much more "ambience" but again I mustn't forget that it had a far too low impedance for my cartridge so maybe with the right one it would have sounded more crispy and forward. I hope not for the unit, because then for me it would be comparable to the average of the other units on the market.

The Klyne, instead, has a very nice ambience, for somebody it could sound "dull" but it has a vey nice image (at least for orchestral music).

The Walker phono amp is so far better than any other but since its price is so far higher I will not comment on it except that the instruments are also not so forward as most of the people would expect them to be.

 

Could one of the forum's more learned friends explain to me how a passive 3rd Order crossover is able to delay the incoming signal my a precise 3ms I have always been under the impression that this was done actively

 

Titian,

If you ever get to London, I would reccomend visiting Tron (they are based near Heathrow).

Graham Tricker (of Tron) makes the finest phono stage Ive ever heard. His own phono stage was made without any compromise to price, but he has never officially launched it, because the price would be too prohibitive.

I wrote about it on groovehandle once - essentially a four box phono stage, with seperate power supplies to each channel. The whole thing is single ended, and uses what looked to be variants on 300b valves.

I honestly believe it to be world class, with a presentation much as you described.

For me, it would be on the audition shortlist if I won lottery money, but might be within your budget! who knows...

There arent really any 'standard' Tron products, his components are bespoke items for each customer.

This is their website (they are also the importers for J C Verdier, Avantgarde, Schroeder tonearms, Allearts cartridges etc)


http://www.gtaudio.com


Wish I could have one too... maybe we should burgle him !!! hehe


Chris
:JOEL:

 

Chris,
thanks for your suggestion.
I just contacted GT Audio by phone (long call) and enquired about Tron' phono stage.

The meteor is about 20% more expensive than the Walker but since I got good rebate for the Walker D ) the Thron would cost me much more. Anyway I am interested in hearing it and when I come to London (Graham, Lee and Ian are going to organize something), I would tell them to put a visit to GT Audio in the programme.

Hoping to see you too.

Do you know some professional thief ? hehe

 

Titian,
If you want a phono stage, then you should also give
these people a try. I have no idea if Lyra kit is available in Switzerland, but it seems to be in your price bracket

 

Re: Re: Three lunatics in the asylum

The Flies Crawled Up The Window :

 

Re: Re: Re: Three lunatics in the asylum

Nobody's THAT old!!!

 

Do you mean this ?

label is www.alpha-prod.com

 

No, I meant this, which I now have (I just had a sample disc at Titian's. Although it's called "New World Symphonies" it's using the word symphony in a very archaic sense, and all the pieces are choral. The particular track was "Los conflades de la estelya" by Juan de Araujo, a processional piece that mixed standard baroque/renaissance verses with more lively refrain sections that are precursors to the rhumba! (And I guess it was probably written in Bolivia rather than Peru - he moved there in 1676). The other similar piece on the disc is "Convivande esta la noche", with a very catchy alternation of 6/8 and 3/4 bars throughout. The other very obviously New World influenced piece is "Hanaq pachap kusikuynin" (on how many message boards does one get the opportunity to quote yer genuine Quechua/Aztec?), a renaissance hymn with some rather non-standrd harmonies and underpinned with a very non-churchy bass drum. The rest of the disc is also great, but I would not recognise it as out of the European mainstream.

 

Aha. Sounds interesting. I'll have to keep an eye out for that. The Alpha-prod album looks very interesting (I've got it on order), with lots of percussion and Peruvian voices.