Three lunatics in the asylum

I've also heard that using TacT (RCS) without the matching TacT amplifiers doesn't work that well either since in correcting the sound a considerable amount of gain is lost, particularly if you're boosting any frequency to get rid of dips in the response curve. Clearly if you're applying a +10dB boost to, say, 90Hz, you'd have to reduce the overall gain to prevent clipping at the amp in cases where you had the volume turned right up.

So, if you have to use the TacT amps for best results then there's not much point in considering TacT for Titian's system because you'd be talking about a completely different system already.

Michael.

 

Actually Michael that's a bit of a myth. You do lose level, you lose the room gain that is the byproduct of standing waves and reflections. Using a sub/sat setup, as Titian does, would mean that you could avoid significant nulls and have no need for boost. I do not have to digitally boost any frequencies. The use of subwoofers would be essential for ultimate results.

Thinking of Titians' system, and the clear superiority of the analogue setup however, the Tact would be of limited use anyway, as it certainly could not be used with the TT. It would be interesting to hear with the CD side however.

Again, it would be interesting. Jean Yves from Paris, whose system Titian is no doubt familiar with, recently replaced $90K of Gryphon and Cary amplification with $18K of Tact amps c/w digital crossovers. To say he is impressed is an understatement Sorry but Titian's speaker array just looks ready for the RCS2.2X

 

'Move us away from the Combat Zone No.1'

 

TacT with my system

I am rather concerned in getting a better music quality not through other electronic equipments, which correct errors due to the used units and the room. I am very convinced that first the used components have to be of superb quality, that all resonances and the influence between the units are minimized.

In this concern I am far away from the finish:
- the Walker phono stage is a first step,
- the new version of Nestorovic satellites is the next
- full revision of old components has to be done
- turntable fine adjustments has to be done especially when using the Walker phono stage
- eliminate resonances (Mr. Walker might help me with that since he is a specialist in that field)


Adding more components to a system like mine will only make life complicated and believe me it is already complicated enough. In general units like the TacT usually add lots of distortion or coloring of the music and especially it would kill the “ambience†which my system creates. I would also believe that what most of you mean by “ambience†is, is not that what I mean. I once did a post about it in the other forum and I think Michael has copied it somewhere in this forum.

The fullness and lots of other characteristics which stroke Graham in my system are part of what I mean by ambience and I wouldn't like to lose some of them just for the sake of a TacT (sort of room equalization).

The Tact amplifiers are very nice and good mostly on digital components. I feel though they are far too analytical for my taste. I don't need that because it goes again against what I mean by ambience.

I am interested in knowing what Mr. Nestorovic will say about it…

 

Re: TacT with my system

Yes, it's here:

https://www.audio-forums.com/as-rediect/showthread.php?threadid=106&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

Scroll down a bit and you'll see it.

Michael.

 

Sorry I am not familiar with Jean Yves's system.
For me names don't mean anything. I keep focus on what I hear personally and on my goals. Everybody has his own taste and very probably Yves's taste is not the same as mine (or he has never heard Nestorovic's stuff ).
Thanks for your suggestion about the RCS2.2X but maybe you shoud come here and hear the type of music I am achieving for. It is quite different to others (true or not Lee, Graham, Ian?) and a Tact would go diametrical opposite.

 

Interesting Titian,

Please don't take this the wrong way, this is not meant to be provocative, but I find nothing more amusing than audiophiles dismissing products on theoretical grounds without actually listening to the results prior to comment.

I would not recommend the RCS2.2X in your setup anyway as you primarly use a turntable. I would however certainly say that spending time trialling the RCS may well prove something of a general eye opener for any audiophiles. It can be most things to most men, but some will not like the results. We are of course all different, as a point of reference, most visitors will compare the Tact systems to master tape rather than actual live performances.. But it's funny you know, I never hear the distortions that people tell me of. Some audiophiles tell me that I need to know what to listen for!!!!

I was interested to know, at what frequency you are crossing over from the subs to the mains? Also how do you compensate for the time delay that affects the subs impulse response? Your site also does not mention the type of crossover used, could you enlighten me? Is it digital or not? I rather suspect that your system is spectacular! Could you also give us some idea of the cost to you of your current setup. I know it's rather vulgar, but it would help to get things into perspective.

 

Sorry Titian,

I kind of assumed that as you were both on the ACA website, proudly displaying your systems to the world, that you may be familiar with Jean and his setup. I guess I thought that the ACA was a kind of community for the truly obsessed

 

to merlin

merlin,
don't worry. I didn't take your posts as offending or provocative and I hope my answer didn't come to you as such to.
Your suggestion is actually interesting!

I have an external crossover unit of Nestorovic for cutting the frequency at 200Hz. You can also modify the gain for both low frequencies (<200) and higher ones from -3 to +7 (I believe). The nestorovic loudspeakers have also a very high quality crossover inside which you can turn on or off.
Mr. Nestorovic himself suggests to use the internal crossover but since I need a gain compensation between lows and highs I use his external crossover for the low frequencies only (the Krell doesn't have a volume control). For the satellites I use the internal crossover as suggested.
I will put the costs in a next post: I have to get the actual retail prices! No problem, but I know it will scare you as me!

Don't ask me how I compensate the time delay. It could be the position of the subs relative to the satellites. Nestorovics gives exact placement guides which then may be varied depending on the electronics you use (cables also). Also the width between the two satellites columns depend very much on the electronics and cables. Every time I change the cables I had to put the columns more together or a part. Definitely no turn in of toes is needed!

If you don't hear distortion better for you and especially don't listen to those who tell you what you need to listen for.
Maybe it was not distortion what I meant but deteriation of sound.

 

I came on ACA on request of the owner. I had contacted him because he has also the turntable I have and wanted to have some information about some cartridges.
I don't mind to show what I have so I gave him the details of my system. I never updated them, though!

Am I proud of my system? maybe, maybe not. Actualy if I think about it: no. I want it better.
I would like to give other people who cannot have a system like this one, the possibility to enjoy it so I do organize concerts at my place. At the moment it is unofficial but I hope in a few months I can do them on a regular base.

 

Re: to merlin

Which is probably just as well, as they will be already curled enough by the first answer !

Mike - when Titian first mentioned the crossover frequency, and pointed to the subs in the corner, I thought "hmmm, now who else would be interested in this?" . It would be interesting to hear what a bit of TACT would do, but (for the reasons I gave above) I suspect there would be less benefit here than in a more conventional room configuration. The fundamental imaging capability of the system as it stands is at least on a par with what I heard at yours - but it would be interesting to hear your latest incarnation.

 

Oh no Here we go again

Those Nestorovic subwoofers look like they would be perfect for my setup. The Tact subs that I had when some forum members came around were a very different design, the whole philosophy being to match the impulse response to the midrange driver.

Any sub that is capable of crossing over at 200hz should exhibit excellent timing, this in turn will lead to tremendous imaging. The Tacts were just a little too clean for my tastes, given that I listen to a lot of electronic music. Even Peter admits that the result is tremendous definition but at the expense of weight and authority.

I ended up with the Dynaudio Contour sub, I love the rich but controlled bass the Tact can generate with it. Still I have to cross over at 80hz and experiments showed me that higher crossover frequencies resullt in greater solidity and palpability. I toyed with the idea of custom building some cabs for 15" JBL drivers, but these Nestorovic seem to have similar design goals to the Tact approach, but I suspect will offer a fuller and more tuneful bass.

As a matter of interest Titian, do they ever appear on the used market, $5500 is a little steep these days

Graham, as ever you would be more than welcome. Do bear in mind though that I have biased the system for non classical works and that my entire system probably cost the same as one of Titian's speaker cables

 

Merlin,
let me put some figures together...

Speakers
2 pairs of Nestorovic satellites 21400$
1 pair subwoofer 12000$ (this is what I heard today, I am not sure because I thought I bought them much cheeper..)

Amplification
Second hand Sonic frontiers preamplifier modified about 4000$

Second hand Nestorovic NA1 Tube amplifiers. If found they may cost about 8000$ (?) per pair.

Krell PB300C, listed in CH for ca. 9000£
(got a demo model for about 50%)

Cables
All cables are Fadel Coherence line except for the special made Goldline speaker cables. Listing about 20000 £ (got for much less)

Digital
Metronome CD-Transporter Kalista and Converter with Venture Digital XLR cable. Listed in CH for about 19000£ (got it also for a very special price)

Analogue
AAS Turntable with Mozart arm and Jan Allaerts MC2 Finish cartridge. Listed for about 14000£. The TT I swapped it for the second hand system 16 I bought years before.

Klyne Phono section (type 7): don't know how much it costs in UK. I got it directly from Klyne.
The Walker model would cost 10500$.


A few considerations
For the system 16 you don't need a 300W power amplifier. Nestorovic recommends a 200W. There are certainly other types of amplifiers which would do good enough as my Krell and would cost cheaper. My choice was also done because I could get the Krell very cheap.

Fadel cables are fantastic but there are cheaper power cables which are also good enough. For IC I would still recommend the Coherence. To save a bit of money I would suggest the Coherence instead of the Goldline. When I bought the Goldline there weren't any coherence loudspeaker cables. For low ends why not the Reference One. That line is cheaper and certainly good enough for low ends. Cheaper cables from other companies would also be enough for low ends. Buying all cables from the Fadel's dealer gave me a good rebate.

Nestorovic products are very very difficult to get on the second hand market because nobody who has them would sell them. Maybe if you are lucky you will be able to find a very old model but I wouldn't recommend to buy them. The loudspeakers seem to cost a fortune but believe me there are so many products on the market which cost much more than them, which aren't even half as good. But of course that is a personal opinion. The fact is that Nestorovic is not much known since he doesn't do any marketing. he says he has enough work for his small company and doesn't need more. With more orders the quality would drop. Talking to Nestorovic today I heard that he doesn't want to make any more subwoofers. First he hardly earns anything out of them and second the backs of his employees get quite ruined when making them (60-70Kg each). The prices of the satellites will go up at least 20% since the material for the new version and other costs raised considerably. For pop and electronic music I wouldn't buy nestorovic loudspeakers because there are other cheaper ones which give also very good results. This is my opinion if you are interested in the price / quality ratio.
For classical music many small quality difference make a big difference at the end, which is much mode audioble as for other genres.

Have I answered to all questions?

 

Thanks for that Titian.

I had not realised that the Nestorovic Subwoofer was priced individually. I could build some quality cabs utilising the top of the range JBL 15" with Alnico for about 50% of the cost which would represent better value for me. I have no need of passive or active crossovers, as this is all handled in the RCS, as is time alignment and equalisation. Oh well, at least your post cured me of the urge to upgrade!

. Sorry Titian, but knowing a well known UK speaker manufacturer, I am aware of the margins, and you simply have to look at the cost of drive units and materials to realise that the mark up (at $12K per pair) is rather attractive to the manufacturer. I am sure they are very impressive, I for one have found the quality available from small independent US manufacturers (in my case Merlin), to be exceptional. I just feel that buying high end loudspeakers at more than 50% of retail is the hifi equivalent of being mugged.

As for the system Titian, I have to say it seems like money well spent for you. I would still have a couple of issues with the temporal accuracy available from the sub/sats (given that there is no time alignment) which may compromise the performance on some more modern material (prat anyone?) But any system that can keep Graham happy for a whole weekend must have some truly exceptional qualities

 

And then some

 

I understand what you mean. The fact is that Mr. Nestorovic doesn't want to make anymore these subwoofers. If he would make a big margin I wouldn't understand his decision. Up to now he made only 8 pairs of them like my version (concrete).
Nestorovic just buy the high quality raw material which he then selects in his laboratory. He builds his own drivers and crossovers. The drivers are tested on their own, then as they are built in the chassis and at last when the product is finished. The pair of subwoofers are also matched together that means the two subwoofers have identical (or the closest possible) characteristics (including velocity, reaction ...). This means he may even have to build more drivers if they don't match together! The chassis has internally a concrete layer which he says is very complicated to do. This whole procedure takes lots of time. Once you order a pair of subwoofer it takes about 2 months laboratory time to produce them.

Also the 4 satellites are completely matched together. I think he buys the tweeters already made but selecting 4 of them with the same characteristics is very time consuming and mean you need a good selection. Have you ever tried to match 2 valves? Well he has to match three times 4 drivers for the system 16. I just ordered 2 pairs of the new version: it will take about 3 months to make them.

Of course we can object that maybe you can get the same result with much less effort. I cannot answer to that objection. I think that you can really hear that everything works as one unit. That is maybe the secret of these loudspeakers, the answer to the time delay (for example of two same speakers), of the volume of sound it can produce. Maybe....

I hope this can give you an idea how these speakers are made.

 

Fascinating Titian,

I would agree with you that it is the little things that turn a great design into an outstanding product, particularly when it comes to loudspeakers. Carefully selecting matched drivers and components for the crossover does make the difference that the time demands.

Bobby Palkovic at Merlin is equally fastidious when it comes to creating his speakers. Even down to speccing different wiring harnesses for different amplifier types. I apreciate that all this does cost (the VSM is a small two way that retails for $10K), but the musical result can be delightful. I too would not argue that you can get 90-95% of the end result for probably 50% of the cost. Still, I would miss that last 10%

It's a great shame that they will be ceasing the Subwoofer. This is by far the most interesting design I have seen and would I suspect produce astounding results in the context of my humble system. Still, I guess I will have to go for the 50% option

I am still confused by the lack of time alignment, surely even given equal impulse responses, the wave from the subs will still arrive at the listening position some 4 ms after the mid and treble But thinking about it, that might actually be perfect for reproducing live orchestral pieces given the reverberation of a large concert hall. Am I right in thinking that the instruments responsible for the lower end of the spectrum are generally placed towards the back of the stage, with violins and soloists to the fore Sorry but as you can tell, I am not a great follower of the classics.

 

I don't know if this helps you: the subwoofer are placed 1.90 m behind the satellites facing wall. The phase is inverted. The drivers of the subs are about 10cm from the wall.

 

Well, I decided to experiment

No need to move anything around at Chez Merlin, I simply decided to copy the main preset to another memory, then add 6ms delay to the sub output from the remote control No need to invert phaseas my current sub is forward facing.

Comparing the time aligned and non time aligned results was interesting,. There is definately a difference, with the delayed sub working well on classical pieces. It seems to have an influence across the spectrum, slightly dulling leading edges but seeming to be of benefit to the creation of ambience. Technically I suppose that's what you would expect, but the result is pleasing on orchestral works and acoustic work by the likes of Livingston Taylor.

Back to my normal diet of dance and rock, I find the delay to be audible and vastly prefer the time aligned preset. This produces greater rythmic punch and a cleaner more airy soundstage.

Mmmm.... so should the classical buffs all be trying to get the bass drivers a few feet further back to recreate the hall ambience

 

Mike, you are right in general - that the lower frequency instruments tend to be more on the fringes of the orchestra - but there are probably more exceptions than adherents to that rule. Cellos (frequency range 63Hz-1kHz approx) are normally at the front right (as you look at the stage) - violins (200Hz-2kHz) front left. Double basses (frequencies about half that of cellos) would normally be at the rear-side - probably just next to the trombones and trumpets. Bass drums will be right at the back, but the triangle and xylophone (if needed) - probably the highest frequency principal notes in the orchestra - would normally be pretty much right next to them. Bassoons and double bassoons (nearly as low as the double basses) are pretty much in the middle - but the piccolos are normally around-about the same rank (maybe one row in front). The overall front back separation would typically be about 10 metres - unless a choir gets involved.

I'm not sure how relevant this is though - we know that the impression of depth can be communicated through time-aligned speakers due to the recording alone. I was surprised myself how coherent the system sounded with such a sub-sat split and such a high cross-over frequency. Cellos were maybe not quite as forward as one might expect - actually nothing really came forward of the sat plane (except maybe solo violinists), but that's no bad thing (my system is certainly a lot more forward).

Are we sure there's no sat-delay/time-alignment inherent in the crossover?

[Edit]
Ah, just seen your post. Interesting. Thinking back, I doubt we played anything really dancy (certainly no synth/drum machine stuff), but there was some moderately energetic jazz. I was unsure how crisp the system would be for that kind of stuff, but it seemed to do some fairly driving jazz drum kits pretty well.