What IS Classical?

[GrahamN]

Just did a quick search...
Debussy is mentioned on 3 posts other than on this thread,
Ravel on 12 and...yes...
Granados gets in on 2 as well.

Those of us who like this stuff do though spend more time listening than posting!

 

[TonyL]

I have to confess I find TonyL's musical journey quite mystifying, but all power to you.

I suspect that if you saw how left field my taste in rock is it may make more sense ââ'¬â€œ I've had people stare at my record collection for ages trying to find something they recognise to play!

I agree with RdS that Berg did manage to write some fine stuff (e.g. Lulu and the Lyric Suite) despite the tutelage of Schoenberg - primarily by breaking all the rules, I find him most enjoyable when he sounds like overheated (if that's possible) Mahler. Anyway, I found this brief introduction to dodecaphonic serialism, which seems to have a few other references if you want to take it further.

The link looks really interesting, thanks, I'll try and figure it out tomorrow. Out of the three main serialists Webern is probably my favourite, I really rate his string quartets ââ'¬â€œ I have the Complete Works CD box / Boulez (Sony) and also the Complete music for string quartet / Quartet Italiano on LP (Philips). The versions on the Philips LP are utterly amazing.

To my mind dodecaphonic serialism is a complete dead end and the prime reason that contemporary classical music has so lost touch with the general public and languishes so badly in the doldrums, kept alive only in the dubious waters of film and TV music, and only now being resuscitated by the minimalists (although for how long I'm not sure).

IMHO music has to move forward, and serialism was an important stage, just as say minimalism was in the art world. If nothing moves forward you are left with talent-less rehashing of the past such as Lloyd-Weber's truly painful Requiem etc. Music is a continually moving target, it stagnates if it does not progress. Pop music is currently in its worst rut ever with Karaoke Idol / Karaoke Academy lowest common denominator reality tv shows forming the basis for the UK charts.

His pre-serial stuff is lovely though - Verklaerte Nacht is just sublime.

Verklaerte Nacht is indeed stunning.

Tony.

 

[Rodrigo de Sá]

Originally posted by titian
... I am sure RdS knows much about it and can maybe put some few thoughts about it.
thanks

Thank you for your kind words, but your confidence is badly misplaced in this case! I know virtually nothing about impressionism in music. I can't understand Debussy's harmony at all. It seems he just creates an effect with it and I find the result very difficult to understand.

Ravel is another story. His harmony is more understandable (I think) and I can detect some harmonic structure even if I can pinpoint the difference between them. Ravel also seems to like well defined melodies; but that is really not the reason I prefer him to Debussy. It is the harmonical part that I don't understand.

And Graham , I couldn't agree more: this minimalistic trend is the direct result of Schoenberg's aversion to understandable music.

Now if the music had developed from Bartok instead of serialism things would be quite different.

There are good signs, however: there are a lot of modern composers who are not minimalists and not serialists and they just compose, ahem.., music, understandable and about our time. This is very clear in French organ music (thierry Escaich - spelling?) is a good example.

Some of Arvo Pärt's works are very interesting, too. I listened to a piece written for a lot of cellos (he later added percussion and perhaps some violins) and it was quite impressive (but a bit boring, the growning and lamenting went on and on!).

 

[Rodrigo de Sá]

Originally posted by GrahamN
There are instances of 12-tone sequences in various pre-20th cent works, e.g. IIRC when Mozart shows the Commendatore in to Don Giovanni, the main Faust theme in Liszt's eponymous symphony, also pilfered by Wagner for Walkure, and I even remember something about Bach writing a fugue or two with all 12 semintones in the subject - RdS will no doubt expand on or correct this. The difference is that these sequences are just themes about which more or less conventional developments and harmonies are woven, rather than according to the (rather sterile ) serial theory.

The last fugue of the WTC I has the 12 tones in the theme; a fitting tribute to the work and one of the most marvelous fugues ever composed.

Somewhat difficult like at first (the theme is very strange) and aftewards to follow, but keep trying and you'll get there (Leonardt's is, by a very large margin, the better interpretation IMO). Difficult to play, too.