when is bass "big"?

SCM100A SLs.

They really have spoiled me for any other speakers. The midrange clarity, in particular, is simply stunning. They are fast as fcuk, and they won't distort at high levels. They can play at (I think) 113dBA/m continuous music output with headroom on top of that for transients, without distortion. Which is more than enough for a domestic environment.

You absolutely do need to use Mana stands with these speakers to get the best out of them.

 

I was considering buying those Sparks (or a very similar pair) a couple of months ago IIRC but the rated 38Hz lower frequency limit put me off them slightly - I was trying to find something to push nearer 30Hz I actually ended up getting a good deal on a new pair of Quad 22Ls which I'm sure aren't as good a speaker all round but probably have a bit more bass extension.

Anyway, the lowest fundamental on a bass guitar hits 44Hz IIRC, but an orchestral double bass (or a modern piano!) can occasionally go below 30Hz and an organ can go plenty lower than that again - you really need to get down to 30Hz to get a convincing rendition of a big bass drum IMO too.

Domestic rooms usually aren't big enough to allow for a flat response in the bass region as room excitation modes come into play, but personally I'd rather have a slightly uneven bass than none at all. To be fair though I certainly notice the unevenness considerably more during the 5% of the time that I'm listening to non-classical music - pop and rock has static basslines in a way that classical music just doesn't so it's much more noticeable when a single note stands out.

 

Interesting. I would also recommend you get a listen to a pair of 107/2s, they'll do 116 db continous if required (my willy your willy ). They are considered by some to be the best Kef have ever produced.

I was starting to get nervous that you hadnt mentioned Mana. Phew!

 

thats what Jeff was saying to me Pete,with classical music you need to go lower,hence his need to move on i think,but i have never been to a live classical concert,so i wouldnt know whether my system was faithful anyway.I only now know because you mhave quoted some figs

but i suppose we are talking the preverbial nats cock between 30 and 38 with a room full of soft furnishings

 

you really need to hear some street musicians, say a brass band or better, a string quartet to realise how far current speakers still have to go for realism..IMHO strings show this most, but even brass and piano sound so richer and dynamic in the flesh. hifi is just a poor facsimile...SETs can get closer

 

If you think the ATC 100s do a bit of bass it is worth investigating the larger 150s, Mana once did a dem at the Manchester show with these, actively driven by Stealth monoblocks rather than ATCs own amps. The sheer slam as well as extension of the bass was beyond anything I have heard since.

If the Genelacs sound better than that they are cheap at the price. Promise.

 

Personally I feel that you need a 15 incher to get really deep into it.

Size DOES matter!

 

James, we actually agreed, my gowd, best put a stop to this now
For total dynamics (and colour) a pair of horn load drivers are pretty much as good as it gets.
Least us not forget, small drivers, with iron grip amplification, will surprise you more than you could imagine too

 

Hi Paul,

Yes, well the 150s are probably worth a look, as are the 200s and 300s. Trouser-flapping stuff from all.

But I'm happy - my system never fails to astonish me, and I've had the speakers nearly two years now, and not changed anything else at all (apart from adding more Mana) for about 15 months.

I guess my next port of call might be 150s, but I don't think it is a great priority. Someone told me that those cut off at 34Hz as well - is that so?

Hi Tony,

Agree about 'iron grip' amps, but you might lose a bit in the X-over??

 

James

As has been pointed out above, particularly with rock, it isn't the bottom end extension in hertz , so much as a speakers ability to move lots of air which results in a real slam at the bottom end. Hopefully a very controlled slam which allows you to easily hear individual bass notes/tunes as well as the bottom end of synthetic keyboards and the like.

The cut off of a speaker is further complicated in room by boundaries like walls, floors and ceilings which are likely to push the bass down further. I would expect that the more air a speaker moves, larger cabinet and bass unit, the more these room modes would act on the sound and push the bass down lower. Hence subjectively the 150s sound a lot more powerful at the bottom that the 100s. You definitely don't need 150s your system is fine. You might find that 150s had to fire down the length of the room which would ruin the listening experience. For those of us who like a view anyway.

 

One thing to remember is equal loudness curve. You really do need a hell of a lot of output at 20hz to really hear it, example, if listening at 80db in the midrange, a 20hz signal would need to be around 114db to be perceived as at the same level. When you are listening at even lower levels, the contrast is even more extreme.

This might go someway to explaining why in domestic systems, the real punch is felt between 60hz and 150hz, as these are much easier for the ear to pick up. In a club system, it is totally possible to EQ the setup to give equal bass levels, you just need big bass bins with enough efficiency (hence horn loading)

My JBL's don't really do the low stuff without EQ, but will put out 126db continuous at 1m from 40hz upwards And I get less room boom with them than when using the little Proacs on their own - so

 

The speakers are smaller nowadays because affordable subwoofers are available, and they do a good enough job when well integrated...

 

F*ck me. Michael are you still selling the JBLs?

 

Greg,

trust me i don't want to, but I'm moving to a top floor apartment and these thing arn't neighbour friendly!

To give you an idea, today I had a visitor looking to buy my Sim amps, a real high end nut if you know what I mean. We played the same CD through the two "chains". CD Player/ Sim pre/power/ Proac response 1sc vs CD player/ Rotel AV receiver/Sim Power/ Proac 1sc/JBL.

The first setup impressed with it's hifi qualities and resolution. The second had the guy grinning from ear to ear and the hairs on his arms standing on end

That was the first time I'd really let 'em rip and I was just as amazed as my guest - big bass is seriously addictive. F*ck hifi

No disrespect Antonio, but you know I've owned some VERY expensive subs. And they don't do what these do

 

Big bass eh? more like a 12db hump at 80hz! such as mini systems and some speaker designs, sounds impressive but not exactly hi-fi. Small speakers don't do bass well, it boils down to basic physics.

Big drivers are needed for deep clear, loud and accurate bass. Sub-bass min driver size, 18-24" mid bass 8-15" midrange 3-4"/horn, not an easy task to fit into a typical British room!. Compromises therefore must be made.

The O

 

I'd say there are exceptions to that rule, allbeit using some pretty serious engineering;

How about a sub measuring little more than a cubic foot and with a 10" driver that can reach down to 18Hz (anechoic) and yet with harmonic distortion typically below 1%! The 15" version of the same sub has an anechoic response down to 15Hz.

According to your theory, both these would only qualify as mid-bass producers.

Matt.

 

Interesting thread.

Sat playing my clarinet at work today and had a listen to the group around me - thought I'd play a little game and check out how much bass was actually present in the overall sound.

To my surprise (shouldn't have been really - been doing this job for over 20 years) there was actually very little 'bass' at all. There was the presence of lower instruments which contributed to the overall sound, but on the whole there wasn't what one would call 'bass' which hits you in the stomach.

I appreciate that some music genres require a lot of bass - but when it starts to overpower what's going on further up the frequency range and smother detail it's way too much. I've always felt too much bass is a lot worse than too little.

As an example, I've just 'upgraded' my speakers (from 18 yr old Super Tabs) to Tab 50 Signatures. Lovely speakers the Sigs - especially in maple - but their bass is too much. I bought them off eBay and they're in beautiful condition - however I foolishly though they'd sound very similar to my older ProAcs; not the case. They're overly rich, warm, overblown in the bass and lacking any musical drive - bass guitar is a mumble rather than a separate instrument. I put my old speakers back on and the musical inflections re-appear - lines are so much easier to follow aswell.

Sorry...I'm going off topic and it's turning into a mini-rant.

 

Current vouge for slimline cabinets is to blame for tiny bass drivers and unsatisfactory bass perfromance.
Mission tried to get over this problem in their award winning 782 and 783 speakers by mounting larger bass units sideways; but with limited success.

Bring back the 15 inchers!

 

yeah another vote for 15 incher plus.

I want some jbl 2600s. or similar.

 

Gromit,

those Proacs aren't doing real bass, they are fartung really hard out of the vent in an attempt to convince you they do. And it sounds very nice to me, providing you don't try to analyse it too much.

What obscures detail further up is not too much bass, but distorted bass or port resonances and overhang. Much as i like my 1sc's, they are not exactly convincing in the bass department, they do however make a good satellite when partnered by some serious bass cabs