Accuracy Part 3.

You really don't get it... do you?

Forget about money. Money is not everything... TD does what he does for the fun of it and that's why it is so true. He doesn't live from audio...

He is always fighting against himself, against his designs limitations... trying hard to reach more accuracy.

I don't have an obcession with accuracy... it just happens that it is so obvious to me that I really have difficulty in understanding why other people don't see it, unless they are worried about money and status (having something fancy and esoteric).

Because if you say that all that matters is the way it sounds, just answer this simple question:

Why do you keep changing equipment? As far as I know, Dylan lyrics will always be Dylan lyrics even when heard through the phone.

What Merlin doesn't know is that the ear don't tolerate distortions forever. After some time the ear will end up telling you: "IT IS NOT ACCURATE!"...

And then you'll have a need for change... you cannot tolerate it any longer because all fantasys will end at some point, otherwise they become erratic behavior, like changing equipment systematically without knowing exactly where to improve. It's like a sexual pervert, who doesn't know what sex is anymore. Like you don't know what music is anymore because you are hearing the equipment all the time and not the music.

If I am wrong, please prove it to me and do not change equipment once you have choosen something you like. Can you do it? Of course not, I am 100% sure of it.

I've tried to give you something concrete, a brand name, that is reasonably accurate in order to you to be able to appreciate what I am talking about, but you didn't care because it's budget stuff...

Do try to hear expensive speakers and a multibit CD machine with that inexpensive stuff... you might be surprised. That's something nobody does because it is not expensive enough.

Just try... if you dare!
 
Titian,

Your mixed feelings about portugueses are totally justifiable once you start hearing Mr V.

I tried to run away from all that lyrism... but I'm affraid it's everywhere.

HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Berry,

you are forgetting that I have tried it :D

Rotel 1062, Merlin VSM Millenium, Sim Eclipse. It misses so much that I find it hard to believe that you really know what music sounds like. Even a decent non global feedback tranny amp sounds so much more realistic it's amusing.

We are talking realism here, not technical accuracy as Vermeer pointed out - the illusion of real musical events rather than perfect reproduction of naff recordings butchered by digital decimation and compression.

So just to recap ;) I do know. I have tried. I have learnt. Maybe now it's your turn. It would seem sensible to get to listen to the alternative before coming on this forum and suggesting we are ignorant.
 
I think hi-fi is in decline amongst the young because music as a thing in itself simply isn't as important to the yoof as it once was, it's generally a soundtrack to doing something else. There's a lot more entertainment choices now than there were when I was a lad and it was all fields around here.

Accuracy is a laudable objective ISTM. But I reckon BD, having found a Rotel amp that measures well and that he likes, should concentrate on finding a better pair of speakers. He should flog his CD player too and replace it with a NOS DAC. :p

-- Ian
 
BerylliumDust said:
I've tried to give you something concrete, a brand name, that is reasonably accurate in order to you to be able to appreciate what I am talking about, but you didn't care because it's budget stuff...

Do try to hear expensive speakers and a multibit CD machine with that inexpensive stuff... you might be surprised. That's something nobody does because it is not expensive enough.

Just try... if you dare!
Click to expand...
I've just sold and installed some Nonsuch 4s with 2 x Little Awesomes (about £6k worth of speakers) to a guy who is using a £400 Yamaha A/V integrated amplifier (plus an inexpensive stereo power amp for the bass).

The Yamaha measures quite well according to its specs. but I wasn't expecting it to sound especially good at such a low price.

Well, I was wrong and pleasantly surprised. Both the client and I thought that it sounded pretty good, both through his DVD/projector system and through his Shanling CDP.

So BD, I see what you mean - a very respectable sound indeed from an inexpensive amplifier and achieved with speakers that can be very revealing. It just goes to show you, a flat frequency response curve and very low measured distortion can indeed be predictors of good, subjective sound.
 
BerylliumDust said:
Now you are quoting Mr V...

HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLP!
Click to expand...

That'll be because he makes sense to me :D

Steve, passive or active experience? At the beginning of the thread, it was said that even basic trannny amps can give very good sound indeed. It's just the autor's nagging feeling that something is missing in relation to real music that takes the true total immersion away from the experience regardless of power or cost.

I can understand where he is coming from.
 
Mind you, if you ask me if it sounds as good to me as the same speaker system with the more usually preferred Border Patrol S20 valve amplifier, the Sugden Masterclass solid state or Anthony Matthew's Soul hybrid (all of which measure significantly worse), using a Wadia CDP modded by a member of this forum whose very name is synonymous with modifying Wadias ...













... Of course it bloody didn't.











... Not even close.



For naturalism, the transfer of emotion and sheer joy of listening to a wide range of different music types, there's no way that I can achieve anything like the same results with a few hundred pounds worth of electronics. Pity. :(
 
merlin said:
My question was trying to find a reason for it. Could it be that modern hifi turns them off? It just doesn't sound different enough to a PC and mini system to get them interested?
Click to expand...

To be fair most of my mates, whether they are interested in hifi or not are always impressed when they hear mine after listening to their mini systems so I'm not sure its that really....

Especially when you've got so many other passtimes to enjoy such as video gaming, text messaging and binge drinking :D
Click to expand...


I think you have absolutely hit the nail on the head there in my experience...

Or is it the music that sucks?
Click to expand...

And that has something to do with it as well :D Although I dare say some of the music you think sucks is a lot of what they / I listen too ;)

there are times when I want an active experience, and then I sit down, stick on the vinyl, crank it up and get transfixed for 20 minutes or so. That's got f all to do with technology IMO. but it is an experience I feel is beneficial to anyone.
Click to expand...

Same here. I love to listen to music before drifting off to sleep. Just close my eyes and listen only to the music. Its wonderful, like being on a drug / meditation... however if I explained that to a lot of my mates they would probably take the piss :lol:

My quandry is whether this apathy is because music no longer matters or because the yout' just don't get the opportunity to hear really good music systems that communicate with them? After all, gig attendances don't seem to have dropped over the years> For me, you can trace the decline of the hifi industry back to the advent of digital media and recording. And that's scary!
Click to expand...

For all my mates are impressed with mine, they seem to have no desire to get into it themselves even when they have sat in my room tapping their foot and shaking their fist in the air... I just think its like you say earlier, there are so many other things to get into now that its just not priority for them. Most would sooner have a big widescreen telly and a DVD player so they can watch their movies, whereas I prefer music, but I am in a total minority within my mates :) I dare say my system might be even better if I didnt have that other binge drinking hobby you speak of ;)
 
7_V said:
For naturalism, the transfer of emotion and sheer joy of listening to a wide range of different music types, there's no way that I can achieve anything like the same results with a few hundred pounds worth of electronics. Pity. :(
Click to expand...

7V's point here if I could relate again to my discussion with Merlin, I think most people can get joy out of cheaper electronics, another reason why young'uns just arent bothered about the most expensive kit....

There will always be a market for good hifi, and there will always be people interested, but IMO it will ALWAYS be in the minority. It will NEVER get back to its glory days of years ago, simply because theres much more choice nowadays -- unless of course we get to the stage where EVERYTHING becomes so cheap that everyone can have it all.
 
cheap hi-fi is like a cheap car. you can rag the tits off it, pile 9 people into the bck seat and bogg off to blackpool for the day and have a lot of fun because you don;t care what happens - a few dings and scrapes won;t matter in the long run. however a porshe or ferrari are always going to out perform you but their owners will be worying about some scrote keying it which will take some of the fun away.
cheers


julian
 
What does bug me is your arrogance, that you have an accurate system, and others such as me have a "fantasy system" how do you know this?
Click to expand...
I have no opinion on your system, I haven't heard it.

The only objection I make is to calling the 'alternative reality' type of music maker a 'hifi' because the aim of 'hifi' is quite clear. The quote at the top of this thread was quite explicit and was promoting something that by definition was not 'accurate'.

Paul
 
julian2002 said:
merlin,
the fact that your amp is injecting a bit of soul into what is undoubtedly heavily studio eq'ed, dsp'd, processed, compressed music is what you prefer.
bd prefers to hear what is on the disc warts and all.
Click to expand...
Personally I think CDs are on the whole well produced and I've never found any reason to believe that an accurate system isn't desirable or indeed the 'ultimate goal', nor am I entirely convinced that there are any electronics out there which have a soul to inject.
 
julian2002 said:
however a porshe or ferrari are always going to out perform you but their owners will be worying about some scrote keying it which will take some of the fun away.
cheers


julian
Click to expand...

Julian,

But with Porsche and Ferrari you get better accuracy... mind blowing experience.
 
BerylliumDust said:
Titian,

Your mixed feelings about portugueses are totally justifiable once you start hearing Mr V.

I tried to run away from all that lyrism... but I'm affraid it's everywhere.

HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...
BD, sorry, but you haven't understand completely my thoughts.
The keywords in my last posting were not portugueses neither you nor accuracy but obsession. It's always a question about how much.
Ok, you say that you're not obsessed by accuracy but I and a lot of other members here do think you are. Or at least you are giving us that impression.
Pesonally I'm not a top accurate person also because i'm also impulsive or in other words my emotions sometimes play me some dirty tricks.

BerylliumDust said:
Maybe our "Hi-fi" is just way of escaping to our own reality... a way of "escaping the matrix"
Click to expand...
Don't think that all in my case. It is true that my system is very exotic but I'm just interested in getting the feeling to be in a concert hall and to enjoy music. I don't want to escape from any reality, I want to get the feelings, the emotions in the music.
If this is for you accurate, it's ok for me.
But one thing you must never forget: I will never recommend my system to anybody else unless I know him very well and he's got my same tastes.
Therefore for me the word accurate when used for a hifi system has hardly any importance.

Ps: who's mr. V...???
 
Last edited by a moderator:
yes but it's a bugger when it comes time to park it. just look what happened in ferris beulers day off.... with a knackered old ford mondeo you could park it unlocked on blackpool sea front go get leathered and it'd still there for you to sleep your hangover off in and then get you home in time for tea.
my point is that both aproaches have positive and negative attributes, neither is perfect. it's up to the individual to see which one suits them the best - that's why these things are subjective.
cheers


julian.
 
JU,

good little analagy there sir, plus the Porkers & Stallions, are like debutants, have to wake them very gentley in morning, caress them till there eyes open, bring them breakfest in bed, on a silver platter, and run those bubbles so high the bathroom door looks like a 2 foot retaining wall, HOWEVER after 12pm, you can ramp the knickers off for hours at a time and garantee'd satisfaction, until 5pm when they 'had too much for the day' and won't be 'available till 1am' :D
Pete,

You really must listen to a few of the Forum guys systems, Robbo's, Merlins Ju's you may find yourself re-evlauating your last statement :)

Me I'm off to thrash my citroen silly
 
Paul Ranson said:
The only objection I make is to calling the 'alternative reality' type of music maker a 'hifi' because the aim of 'hifi' is quite clear. The quote at the top of this thread was quite explicit and was promoting something that by definition was not 'accurate'.
Paul
Click to expand...

OK Paul, then let's differentiate to accurate and faithful because to my ears and a lot of other people's your so called fantasy systems are subjectively often more faithful to the sound of live music than any so called accurate/hifi system I have heard.

To accept the theory that these systems can pull this trick off very well, we have to accept that an accurate hifi system does not, by definition exist if we take the orginal musical instrument as the source.

Once we accept that this is the case, and I'd be delighted to be shown that I'm wrong with that assumption, then the premise that euphonic distortion can be your friend and technical accuracy is no guarantee of percieved reality starts to become acceptable.

If hifi is defined by your own declarations, then IMO it remains a fruitless and unrewarding passtime.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top