Accuracy Part 3.

Beauty is in they eye of the beholder.

This rings true for audio. For most people getting a system that THEY LIKE is all that is important, accuracy is not an issue.

Each man must be the judge of his own system, only he can tell how much pleasure it brings him.

In the words of Slartybardfast

"I'd rather be happy than right !"

Chris:)
 
"I'd rather be happy than right !"
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Absolutely Chris, and I don't think that oedipus or any of the other objectivists here would have a problem with that. The problem is that many people who'd rather be happy than right seem to get rather upset when they're told that they're wrong ;)

Michael.
 
And yet for all of the posturing about how a $100 cdp is just as, if not more, accurate than some $5k cdp I still haven't seen any evidence to prove this.
 
michaelab said:
The problem is that many people who'd rather be happy than right seem to get rather upset when they're told that they're wrong ;)

Michael.
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That's not a problem: it depend mostly from whom you get told you're wrong.
Certain persons have very low reference, experiences, not to talk about ....
Well better not get involved in this. :rolleyes:
 
I'm tempted to split this thread here and title it the "$100 CD player challenge".

LiloLee said:
And yet for all of the posturing about how a $100 cdp is just as, if not more, accurate than some $5k cdp I still haven't seen any evidence to prove this.
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I find it interesting that now you want "proof". Let's see if you can generate a "proof" that contradicts my statement. You can begin by answering this question:

Why should a $5K cd player be more accurate than a $100 cd player?
 
because it has better power supplies, less jitter prone clock, better performing dac, better performing digital filter, better analogue output stages, better transport, better quality components with tighter tolerances, balanced in/outputs, less resonant case, more attention paid to isolation, probably more too but isn;t that enough?

to be honest if you're happy with a 50quid cd player then good luck to you but i would compare your statement to using my squeezebox with and without my external dac. i could tell the difference between the two (in a sighted test) quite easily. of couse to the measurement crowd this 'proves' nothing but there you go.
cheers


julian
 
Perhaps there's something here to explain a few things.

Now, these devices have received pretty much universal acclaim for improving the sound of any CDP and they take the analog output of a CDP as their input. They also claim to do nothing in the 0 to 35kHz band, just some "proprietary processing" in the 35kHz to 120kHz (well beyond audible) band to "align ghost images with the main signal".

First of all, I'd love to know what they're actually doing, secondly, it seems pretty extraordinay that something processing the audio signal from a CDP could somehow improve the accuracy of it, afterall, it has know way of knowing what was actually on the disc. By any rational argument the Whest DAP10 must be reducing accuracy since it can't possibly "know" the ways in which any given CDP is deviating from accuracy. My guess is that it's just an expensive tone control. However, if so many people like what it does it begs the question of whether measured accuracy is subjectively preferable and if not, why not?

Michael.
 
julian2002 said:
because it has better power supplies, less jitter prone clock, better performing dac, better performing digital filter, better analogue output stages, better transport, better quality components with tighter tolerances, balanced in/outputs, less resonant case, more attention paid to isolation, probably more too but isn;t that enough?
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Would you agree that the things you've listed are all measurable?
 
oedipus, your original assertion was
Only a sucker spends £5K on a cd player when the same (and sometimes) better accuracy can be had for $100.
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When a statement like that is made it should be backed by facts.

Throughout this forum are posts sprinkled with statements by you and BD which, just like politicians, say lots but lack the sustance of proof which many of of us are waiting for. You can try to deflect the issue with
oedipus said:
Why should a $5K cd player be more accurate than a $100 cd player?
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but the onus is on you to back any of your statements with measured proof.
 
oedipus, to an extent yes however things will move into the realms of the subjective when given the choice of 2 brands of capacitors (e.g. black gate and m-caps) some prefer one to the other. this cannot be measured as it's down to personal preference.
cheers


julian
 
michaelab said:
Whest DAP10
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The first question this begs is: "is this really audible?"

michaelab said:
My guess is that it's just an expensive tone control.
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That would be my guess too. In cases where there is a verifiable audible difference, beyond level matching, you probably have a tone control, possibly with some deliberate crossfeed for "ambience".

michaelab said:
However, [...] it begs the question of whether measured accuracy is subjectively preferable and if not, why not?
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As I've previously mentioned, in the studies of loudspeaker preference, then measured performance correlates well with listener preference (except when the subject has some hearing loss and is looking for a prosthesis :))
 
julian2002 said:
oedipus, to an extent yes
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So, are you also saying that the components that can be measured:

"better power supplies, less jitter prone clock, better performing dac, better performing digital filter, better analogue output stages, better transport, better quality components with tighter tolerances, balanced in/outputs, less resonant case, more attention paid to isolation"

can also be measured at the analog output of the player?

julian2002 said:
things will move into the realms of the subjective when given the choice of 2 brands of capacitors (e.g. black gate and m-caps) some prefer one to the other. this cannot be measured as it's down to personal preference.
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So, you are saying that there are things that cannot be measured, but can be heard?
 
oedipus said:
So, you are saying that there are things that cannot be measured, but can be heard?
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For a speaker to have a different sound , it need to have a different voltage at the speakers terminals ...and this is easily measured.

The some voltage...the some sound!

Cheers :MILD:
 
sideshowbob said:
Oedipus, how much did you pay for your CD player? Are you still using the Mark Levinson?
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Bugger :)

My current setup is based around a Tact RCS2.2X which has D-to-A converters, it makes no sense to run an expensive transport into that box, or to use the A-to-D input. In short an expensive CD player as a front end would be a waste of money.

To answer your questions: $5200; no (I sold it to a grateful beleiver thankfully :))

I might also direct everyones attention to my previous comments on the 390S:

Here:

http://www.zerogain.com/forum/showpost.php?p=48052&postcount=4

and here:

https://www.audio-forums.com/as-rediect/showthread.php?p=48433&highlight=390s#post48433
 
oedipus,
no, you are stretching an inference too far and trying to put words into my mouth.

you asked whay a 5k cdp is better than a 100 dollar one. i answered with a list of things that could explain the difference either in isolation or combination.

can these differences can be measured? well that depends on the equipment used. if i use a sillyscope or a multimeter then possibly not. if i use my ears over a few weeks swapping between the two then probably yes.

my main problem is that electronicly measuring something that is meant to provide enjoyment is kind of missing the point of the excersise.

at the end of the day i'd be very surprised if you could measure 2 cdp's electronically and then tell me which one i'd prefer.
cheers


julian
 
sideshowbob said:
Couldn't resist. :)
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Actually, I'm glad you brought it up.. Now I don't have to deal with questions like "have you heard a $5000 cd player?" :)

If you could ask me about my speakers, we could head off the observation that "your system isn't transparent enough" too :)

If you do this, it will accelerate our the progress toward the "you're deaf" observations that will be coming somewhere down the line...
 
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julian2002 said:
oedipus,
no, you are stretching an inference too far and trying to put words into my mouth.
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Yeah, it's waht evil scientists do: they get audiophiles sliding down to a path into a logical conundrum that they can't get out of.

can these differences can be measured? well that depends on the equipment used. if i use a sillyscope or a multimeter then possibly not. if i use my ears over a few weeks swapping between the two then probably yes.
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So, now your saying that "ears" are more accurate than test instruments?

my main problem is that electronicly measuring something that is meant to provide enjoyment is kind of missing the point of the excersise.
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But is the enjoyment "audible"? Perhaps you enjoy the product for different reasons..

at the end of the day i'd be very surprised if you could measure 2 cdp's electronically and then tell me which one i'd prefer.
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Your quite correct - your preference isn't based on the electronic measurements, it's based on the color of the box (black), the number of boxes (two), it's reputation (PR&T) and it's manufacturer (naim) :)
 
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oedipus,
no i'm saying that my ears are the products of a few million years worth of evolution and are my way of evaluating pressure waves in the air and discerning meaning from them. squiggles on a screen or a twitching needle seem to be a big leap from telling me if i'll like those pressure waves or not.

most of my listening is done while i work at my pc. i sit at 90 degrees to my kit so it is not visible - often the music will just transfix me and i'll have to stop work and listen to it. how do you measure that or say that it's down to my kits bling catching my eye?

well as i don;t actually use a cd player, my digital souce has 4 boxes in it, none of them are made by naim and pc audio has a reputatation lower than a snakes ball sack i think i can safely dismiss your assumptions about how i arrived at the preference for the sound of my kit and just get on with enjoying it. i hope you enjoy listening to your amps perfect null silence and your 100 dollar cdp, hey, now i know why you think they all sound the same you're continually null testing aren;t you...
cheers


julian
 

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