active vibration management

I wish I could! My phono is "indisposed" right now with a nasty case of oscillation due to my curiosity about high speed video opamps and my dac just went up the swanny with a defective PLL. I just cant help myself :(
 
brizonbiovizier said:
The cartridge was a lyra helikon, which I have heard on a number of decks.
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That is most certainly not what I would call optimised. Did you audition the Brinkmann with the Lyra or the EMT? Lyra & SME5 don't do it for me. Try Benz Micro LP, Miyabi 47 Lab or Shelter 901 and you will see what I mean.
 
wm - I have no idea what the model number was. It was at hazelmere audio - the guy just said they were spectral amps. I doubt they were the top amp. I also heard plinius, gamut and chapter in comparison. They werent bad by any means but I thought the plinius came out on top. The front end was an avid / sme v with a grasshopper. I think the phono stage was loricraft. Speakers were art and another one I cant quite remember.

sm - I have also heard the sme with the transfiguration. The bl was obviously with the emt. The sme will usually get the best out of most cartridges - its a fine arm and one of the very best, if somewhat lacking pace compared with the 10.5 tonearm. The sound may not be to your taste as cartridges are so subjective but that doesnt mean it wasnt optimised. FWIW Lyra arent much to my taste either, I have heard the helikon on a number of decks so can make some sort of allowance for its character. I will certainly check out the cartridges you have mentioned but they dont seem to be very common.
 
Ah. You listened to the Bl with the perfect cartridge for the arm and deck - a fine combination.

The Lyra designs really don't seem to work that well in the 30 - they seem to have a balance that is tipped up to provide a "neutral" balance in a typically coloured deck. When place in a combination without this level of colouration, they can sound threadbare.

Hence my suggestions, all of which sound more fleshed out but wonderfully transparent and organic with the likes of the 30. You most certainly have not heard what a 30 can really do.
 
I have heard the BL with a number of cartridges including the lyra - just not on that occasion. So I did have a frame of reference. I have also heard the transfiguration on the sme and the brinkmann. My impression with the lyra on the sme was one of a very relaxed slightly warm sound which lacked get up and go. Almost certainly the choice of phono stage could be critical here and is an issue we have not yet touched upon, especially the loading. This is always a real problem in dems as the same phono stage will be used for all the cartridges and its loading may favour one of the choices. I believe the cartridge was the 100 ohm set The Groove. I dont know what loading the lyra needs but the emt favours 636 ohms with some additional capacitive loading and can sound a bit thin at 100 ohms and 110 pf. The emt is very sensitive to resistive loading and 636 +/- 30 ohms is clearly audible, much to my surprise.

On other occasions I have heard the sme20 and 10 with other cartridges. In each case they all fared poorly on rock. Given that the lyra sounds fine with rock on other decks like the OL and the sme V is no slouch the blame would seem to lie with the deck - something noted by others, especially for the sme 20. Of course as you say it may fare better with other cartridges.

This discussion is probably best kept off the forum if you wish to continue it as its not realy relevent and his killed discussion on the main topic - I am happy to do so.
 
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brizonbiovizier said:
On other occasions I have heard the sme20 and 10 with other cartridges. In each case they all fared poorly on rock.
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In what way if I might ask? Are you asking for something that is not on the recording perhaps?

To be frank, no one on this forum seems to have used an active air support so the subject is fairly dead anyway. The discussion as it stands is quite interesting and may be of value to some so I would suggest we keep it in the public domain.
 
Well actually Penance is going to post some stuff if he can and many people have made useful technical contributions.

It was a question of timing and dynamics on rock - coherence. The BL had it and the sme didnt. For classical the sme decks sound superb however. I dont think you can add timing or dynamics as a colouration. I attribute a lot of this to the 10.5 tonearm - having owned both this and the sme I feel that the bearing on the 10.5 is of a higher standard than the sme V and this manifests itself in better dynamics and timing - as does the heated bearing system of the BL for similiar reasons. This would seem to be substantiated by the fact that the breuer 7 and 8 upon which the 10.5 is based under license dont share this property though my friends breuer 5 which has been upgraded with a brinkmann bearing does also have it (and sounds superb on the Sy S8 with custom psu and Ortofon kb).

If some evidence comes along that challanges my current experience then I will of course take it on board without any prejudice. I have found dogmatic beliefs are counter productive to the advancement of my system.
 
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I was thinking of one of the kinetic systems benches that use a honeycomb composite perhaps with an HRS BL platform on top to further isolate the motor from the deck - with the perspex lid surrounding the hrs platform completely without touching it and decoupled from the bench to isolate from air borne vibration (not sure if that latter part will work - depends on the decoupling). I cant think of any other way to isolate from air borne vibration - any ideas?
 
Understood - I have amended my post to be more accurate! Thanks again. What do you think of the kinetic systems benches?
 
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brizonbiovizier said:
I dont think you can add timing or dynamics as a colouration.
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I think you most certainly can if there exists a heightened perception of either or both. To be fair, none of us really listen to much rock music so our perceptions may well be different. I listen to many genres of music encompassing everything from dance to electronic dub and jazz. My good friend is the same, so I guess we both had the difficult job of selecting a tool that excelled as an all rounder rather than one specifically tailored to say rock. Indeed, I suspect, were that my only musical interest, I may well have been swayed by the Yorke S7, so I do understand where you are coming from.

The arms you mention use very different bearings to start with. the sad truth is that both will resonate and both are compromised. Both are however close to the state of the art, only the likes of the Kuzma parallel tracker and the Graham 2.2 offering greater perceived accuracy.

The only evidence you will get will be provided by listening to some properly optimised alternatives and I would fully understand if you chose not to do this - you have a good vehicule for playing your music at the moment anyway!
 
All audio components are a compromise and everyone has different taste in music, hearing perception and also will choose some compromises above others. Which is why design is an art rather than a science in some respects. There are so many variables that they cannot all be eliminated though I have tried to take a rigourous approach. At the end of the day there just isnt enough time and dealers arent willing. Which is why people have such conflicting experiences. Doubtless other cartridges might suit the sme better and if I hear that combo I will adjust my opinion accordingly. To me it suited jazz and classical very well but fell a little bit short on the type of rock music I like. The BL was pretty even handed accross genres, which was a big plus for me.

I havent heard the kuzma or graham but I have heard the air tangent on my deck. Even then paralell tracing arms also have compromsies. Usually in terms of dynamics and bass. I am keen to hear the kuzma to see if it has overcome these problems. The 10.5 is very accurate, much more so than the sme V so it may match or surpass the graham if not the kuzma, but it does add a certain zing in the treble (which is minimised using better cartridge alignment and loading as I have at home). Doubtless the graham will add something somewhere as well. How does the graham compare with the sme 5 IYO?

I am not convinced dynamics can be a colouration though perhaps timing can be a la n**m but the coherence and kineticism on rock was very much greater. Obviously if you listen to little music of this type this fact will be of little or no importance.

I am always open to new possibilities of course. If I find something better than the BL I wont hesitate to move on from it.
 
I rather doubt the Graham would be to your tastes. It is highly neutral with an expansive midrange and a delightful lack of HF glare. It does not major on bass weight and dynamics like the SME and Breuer and most gimbal arms do.

FWIW, this weight, along with the zing you refer to in the treble, are little more than colourations derived mostly from arm resonances. The likes of the Graham and Kuzma do not suffer from these, sound more like quality digital playback in the bass, and are therefor often accused of being lacking in this area.
 
The zing in the treble is a slight colouration however the bass weight and dynamics spring from the bearing and this can be demonstrated on the 10.5 as adjustment of the bearing is possible. Evidence for this is also provided by the difference in the breuer arms with and without the brinkmann bearing - which share the same arm tube and body (and hence resonances) otherwise. Not only is the bass more dynamic and weighty this effect occurs accross the frequency range evenly unlike resonance. The bass is also more textured and detailed. Resonant bass loses something in return for the increase - like certain decks. I really think you should listen to the combination before making too many judgements ;-)

The airtangent had the same dynamics except in the bass. There are sound technical reasons why paralell arms lack in the bass - due to the non fixed nature of the arm affecting the lower frequencies. They not only lack weight they also lack texture details and expressiveness. In short the bass is a bit stodgy and muffled - especially with the clearaudio but to some extent even on the airtangent. I was warned about this prior to the dem. If the kuzma doesnt suffer from this I will be extremely pleased. My cdp doesnt sound that way. I assume the graham is a unipivot so has typical unipivot qualities as you have described. How does it compare with the morch?
 
Unfortunately not Markus, but I look forward to hearing one in January when I visit the States.

BB, I take it you are aware of the make up of an analogue signal below 100hz as depicted in the grooves of an LP.

A lateral resonance caused by the arm's inertia does, I am informed, lead to colourations that manifest themselves as the zing and enhanced bass weight. This will happen with all pivoted arms, the Brinkmann included . Don't ask me anymore, I am a listener not a physicist. But it does explain why many vinyl rigs hype up the bass weight in comparison with both live music and digital sources (it is a rather appealing characteristic however!)
 

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