The Devil
IHTFP
Bit naughty, Tony. For a start, that was the old LP12, and for a finish, you were the only person ever who criticised it in those terms (i.e. you were mistaken).
active vibration management
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wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
James,
I did say it was the best naim based system I had heard to that point. (what ever you felt, it was a compliment honest)
Like you say things move on, and the ladder is now seriously taller.
However the wow factor that BBV implied with these TT's did not manifest itself when I spent some time in the company of a correctly implimented one.
That is not to say it bad, far from it, just not the perfromance that was indicated it was SUPPOSED to be capable of.
Nothing more. T.
I did say it was the best naim based system I had heard to that point. (what ever you felt, it was a compliment honest)
Like you say things move on, and the ladder is now seriously taller.
However the wow factor that BBV implied with these TT's did not manifest itself when I spent some time in the company of a correctly implimented one.
That is not to say it bad, far from it, just not the perfromance that was indicated it was SUPPOSED to be capable of.
Nothing more. T.
WM - lets hear what the system is so we can discuss this finding properly rather than just stirring the pot. As you havent really answered my question I assume it was not supported on the correct support. Give me the info and I will make a judgement about whether I think there is a possible flaw. 
A wow factor for any system isnt just a factor of the source - every link in the chain has to work. So lets get it out in the open.
SM - the lagrange is better than the balance, also you havent actually heard my system... just as you havent heard the S7 and BL on the correct support. Half of it is diy so you have no idea how revealing it is (which it is). Have you heard pmc speakers or bryston amps? In fact if I am correct then you havent actually heard the BL at all - so any of your comments seem to be based on rather scanty evidence. Have you actually heard the sme 30 or yorke? I want to make sure I have understood you correctly. I think if your friend had used the correct support then he would have made a different purchase.
Anyway this is all rather besides the topic of the thread which is about active vibration management.
A wow factor for any system isnt just a factor of the source - every link in the chain has to work. So lets get it out in the open. SM - the lagrange is better than the balance, also you havent actually heard my system... just as you havent heard the S7 and BL on the correct support. Half of it is diy so you have no idea how revealing it is (which it is). Have you heard pmc speakers or bryston amps? In fact if I am correct then you havent actually heard the BL at all - so any of your comments seem to be based on rather scanty evidence. Have you actually heard the sme 30 or yorke? I want to make sure I have understood you correctly. I think if your friend had used the correct support then he would have made a different purchase.
Anyway this is all rather besides the topic of the thread which is about active vibration management.
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The Devil
IHTFP
Thank you, I'd forgotten you said that - it sort of got swamped in the 'lack of bass' and 'Mana is awful' - type comments.
Things have moved on a long way in the past three years. I think you'd really like it, now.
Things have moved on a long way in the past three years. I think you'd really like it, now.
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Let me clarify. I have either lived with, or heard at length, all the turnables have discussed with the exception of the BL, which I have pointed out.
A friend of mine from Milwaukee, who has heard more turntables than you have made posts, compared the Balance (which in the US is sold as the flagship model - yours is considered to be the entry model at the moment), set up correctly I suspect, against the SME30. The honest truth is that he felt the difference between the two was the equivalent of going from a Vpi HW19 with Rega arm to the Brinkmann.
I have tried to be polite about this, but it appears that you find it very difficult to accept that your purchases may not be the ultimate in their field. This is a shame. They are undoubtedly of high quality, all I can do is give some context for those on the forum unable to experience these wonderful turntables.
Try to have a listen to a 30 at home, properly setup and with a quality cartridge (Benz Ebony would be my recommendation) I feel sure that, given a good enough system, you will realise that I am simply offering some of my experiences rather than trying in some way to undermine you.
I am sure that your setup is wonderful, I have already said that. But surely you would not suggest that there is not better and more transparent sounding equipment out there?
A friend of mine from Milwaukee, who has heard more turntables than you have made posts, compared the Balance (which in the US is sold as the flagship model - yours is considered to be the entry model at the moment), set up correctly I suspect, against the SME30. The honest truth is that he felt the difference between the two was the equivalent of going from a Vpi HW19 with Rega arm to the Brinkmann.
I have tried to be polite about this, but it appears that you find it very difficult to accept that your purchases may not be the ultimate in their field. This is a shame. They are undoubtedly of high quality, all I can do is give some context for those on the forum unable to experience these wonderful turntables.
Try to have a listen to a 30 at home, properly setup and with a quality cartridge (Benz Ebony would be my recommendation) I feel sure that, given a good enough system, you will realise that I am simply offering some of my experiences rather than trying in some way to undermine you.
I am sure that your setup is wonderful, I have already said that. But surely you would not suggest that there is not better and more transparent sounding equipment out there?
Hi WM,
"My involvement was my own race team. plus a few years spent on aircraft hydraulics/fuel system (Dowty's/Smiths)"
What type of motor racing was this? Running active cars is not cheap!
"Yes it was fully active, however we spent too long on its application and I negected the motor, still we ran em close LOL"
What performance gains did you get from it in terms of laptime and the actual handling characterisitics that you changed for the better that made the difference?
"The chap is from Gotherington I believe (a husband and wife team?)"
I would bet that is Willem and Sue Toet. He / they drove a Pug and was a bit of a madman in those days. A few big shunts and now he is a little bit more careful but doing very well this year (in 2nd I think). He is an aerodynamcist by trade and so optimises that part of the car. Can't remember him mentioning any use of active on the Pug but that was before I knew him.
Paul Ranson (does he post here? He does on PFM and on Mana) runs a car in the same championship as Willem and probably raced then as well.
Ian
"My involvement was my own race team. plus a few years spent on aircraft hydraulics/fuel system (Dowty's/Smiths)"
What type of motor racing was this? Running active cars is not cheap!
"Yes it was fully active, however we spent too long on its application and I negected the motor, still we ran em close LOL"
What performance gains did you get from it in terms of laptime and the actual handling characterisitics that you changed for the better that made the difference?
"The chap is from Gotherington I believe (a husband and wife team?)"
I would bet that is Willem and Sue Toet. He / they drove a Pug and was a bit of a madman in those days. A few big shunts and now he is a little bit more careful but doing very well this year (in 2nd I think). He is an aerodynamcist by trade and so optimises that part of the car. Can't remember him mentioning any use of active on the Pug but that was before I knew him.
Paul Ranson (does he post here? He does on PFM and on Mana) runs a car in the same championship as Willem and probably raced then as well.
Ian
I dont feel undermined as I dont suffer from the purchase insecurity demonstrated by many hifi buffs. I just want to make the point that without external isolation your friend has not heard even 50% of what the BL can do. I have compared the sme 30 with a lyra helikon with the BL on external isolation and found that the BL was just in a league of its own. Otherwise I would have bought the sme. The comparison was not done through my system I might add. The lagrange and balance are also almost exactly the same price - the lagrange was built to allow for two arm mounting, that is all. That it sounds better was incidental and Brinkmann planned to discontinue the balance until the US distributor kicked up a fuss.
My other point is this - by your own admission you havent heard my deck, you havent heard my diy phono and diy pre and most likely you havent even heard 3-way pmc triamped with bryston so your comments about whether my system is revealing or not are pure supposition. If you are completely honest you have no idea how my system sounds. There is always better kit out there of course but you are not really in a position to assess what the pros and cons of my system are - so your statement is a little suspect. By association it weakens your other assertions.
I have no problem with accepting criticism of my system or that other kit might be better but it has to be based in fact and familiarity. If you or your friend hear the BL v SME with external isolation and still prefer the sme then fine. But if you dont use the BL the way it was intended then you cant be surprised if it sounds dissapointing. A fact I have observed myself with the air suspension turned off. Hifi is a complex field and full of thorny little issues like this and I am just trying to be rigourous - no more. If you can point me to better kit than I have already all you will incur is my gratitude. I can quite understand that might not be obvious in forum exchange however.
See you later... films to see!
My other point is this - by your own admission you havent heard my deck, you havent heard my diy phono and diy pre and most likely you havent even heard 3-way pmc triamped with bryston so your comments about whether my system is revealing or not are pure supposition. If you are completely honest you have no idea how my system sounds. There is always better kit out there of course but you are not really in a position to assess what the pros and cons of my system are - so your statement is a little suspect. By association it weakens your other assertions.
I have no problem with accepting criticism of my system or that other kit might be better but it has to be based in fact and familiarity. If you or your friend hear the BL v SME with external isolation and still prefer the sme then fine. But if you dont use the BL the way it was intended then you cant be surprised if it sounds dissapointing. A fact I have observed myself with the air suspension turned off. Hifi is a complex field and full of thorny little issues like this and I am just trying to be rigourous - no more. If you can point me to better kit than I have already all you will incur is my gratitude. I can quite understand that might not be obvious in forum exchange however.
See you later... films to see!
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I'm sure the US distributor would take issue with your ranking of the models but I will assume there is a reason it is demonstrated as offering the best that they can provide.
At no point have I said that the dem did not involve the appropriate support. Indeed I am waiting for a response to an email I sent to my friend to find out the exact circumstances.
I have not visited your house this is true. One of the beauties of listening to as much hifi as possible over a couple of decades is that provides certain points of reference that enable us to categorise certain products and get a very good idea of system performance and synergy.
I have heard many loudspeakers over the years and have had the opportunity to hear the PMC's on numerous occasions whilst visiting the factory on business in Luton. I have heard them powered with bryston and also with both Classe and Blue Circle amplification.
What I have found is that PMC systems sound like PMC systems regardless - meaning they major on bass weight and extension, ultimate loudness and macro dynamics. And very good they are too, one of the finest domestic monitors I know of. The fact that they leave an imprint on the signal however suggests they are not as transparent as some of the competition, hence my comments. I would be very interested to see some measurements one day.
Please take no offence,none is intended, indeed in time hopefully I can invite you to sample the kind of transparency that I am trying and failing to describe. I am sure then you will understand where I am coming from.
At no point have I said that the dem did not involve the appropriate support. Indeed I am waiting for a response to an email I sent to my friend to find out the exact circumstances.
I have not visited your house this is true. One of the beauties of listening to as much hifi as possible over a couple of decades is that provides certain points of reference that enable us to categorise certain products and get a very good idea of system performance and synergy.
I have heard many loudspeakers over the years and have had the opportunity to hear the PMC's on numerous occasions whilst visiting the factory on business in Luton. I have heard them powered with bryston and also with both Classe and Blue Circle amplification.
What I have found is that PMC systems sound like PMC systems regardless - meaning they major on bass weight and extension, ultimate loudness and macro dynamics. And very good they are too, one of the finest domestic monitors I know of. The fact that they leave an imprint on the signal however suggests they are not as transparent as some of the competition, hence my comments. I would be very interested to see some measurements one day.
Please take no offence,none is intended, indeed in time hopefully I can invite you to sample the kind of transparency that I am trying and failing to describe. I am sure then you will understand where I am coming from.
The Devil
IHTFP
Almost as soon as he mentions it....
....he does it himself.
Class.
brizonbiovizier said:
....he does it himself.
Class.
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Just as a follow up, I have received details from the US! The Brinkmann was placed on a custom Arcici support. I am led to understand that this was adjusted by the distributor.
Although this is not an active air support, it is very similar to the TSS and the results would have been very close to optimum.
Bub, are you suggesting kettles talking?
Although this is not an active air support, it is very similar to the TSS and the results would have been very close to optimum.
Bub, are you suggesting kettles talking?
analoguekid
Planet Rush
I like the bit about only giving 50% without proper support!!!!!!!!!
Maybe Porsche should try it, they are afterall a small company and don't make tyres, so they should just fit four skinny spares, and tell you to keep at 50mph, "coz vee have let you decide to get your own veels and ze tyres at a budget zat suits you!!!!"
C'mon, whose conning who?
Maybe Porsche should try it, they are afterall a small company and don't make tyres, so they should just fit four skinny spares, and tell you to keep at 50mph, "coz vee have let you decide to get your own veels and ze tyres at a budget zat suits you!!!!"
C'mon, whose conning who?
Ak - if you stick cheap retread tyres on a porsche I will wager it will only give "50%" of its full performance. Porsche dont make their own tyres though they provide it in the price (its not free its built in to the costs of course!) as I am sure any hifi dealer would be glad to do. As I said it is trivial to demonstrate the effect of the air support. With the air out the BL is equivalent to something like the origin live resolution, and below the first tier of decks. With the air suspension the deck as it the forefront of the first rank - and I have heard a lot of the best turntables bar the kuzma and some of the US decks.
SM - I believe you warned me earlier in the thread to be skeptical about dealers endorsements - maybe there is a good margin on arcici stands? ;-). The US distributor advises vibraplane or hrs - I suspect the arcici is the dealers preference. It sounds like the same dealer as the guy I spoke to on audiogon. Maybe even the same guy. A quick google revealed
http://www.stereotimes.com/acc041499.shtm which would seem to indicate that perhaps all is not well with these stands.
However you dress it up you dont know what my system sounds like. Have you heard the three way pmc models from the ib1 upwards and with the ST amps (the sst sound sterile to me)? If not then they sound very different to the other models you may have heard. In any case even if you have that still leaves the deck, arm cartridge, phono and pre utterly unknown to your experience so caution is obviously called for in your extrapolations, as not all of a systems performance can be inferred just from the loudspeakers! All loudspeakers have a signature - what would you put forward as being the ultimate in transparency?
No offence is taken of course - I find your manner civil and helpful, if slightly prone to extrapolation using scant evidence ;-). Given your comment to bub I assume he is referring to my own arguments about his system - in his case I have heard all the components in his system though not all at the same time therefore I am well qualified to comment on it.
Anyway ... I beleive this thread has gone somewhat off course. It being concerned with determining the most effective type of active air suspension as I have decided to take that route and wish to get a handle on other peoples experiences. I look forward to receiving some info from Penance next week. I guess the discussion on whether to go for that route at all or suspended or non-suspended might be considered vaguely related or at least not too distracting!
SM - I believe you warned me earlier in the thread to be skeptical about dealers endorsements - maybe there is a good margin on arcici stands? ;-). The US distributor advises vibraplane or hrs - I suspect the arcici is the dealers preference. It sounds like the same dealer as the guy I spoke to on audiogon. Maybe even the same guy. A quick google revealed
http://www.stereotimes.com/acc041499.shtm which would seem to indicate that perhaps all is not well with these stands.
However you dress it up you dont know what my system sounds like. Have you heard the three way pmc models from the ib1 upwards and with the ST amps (the sst sound sterile to me)? If not then they sound very different to the other models you may have heard. In any case even if you have that still leaves the deck, arm cartridge, phono and pre utterly unknown to your experience so caution is obviously called for in your extrapolations, as not all of a systems performance can be inferred just from the loudspeakers! All loudspeakers have a signature - what would you put forward as being the ultimate in transparency?
No offence is taken of course - I find your manner civil and helpful, if slightly prone to extrapolation using scant evidence ;-). Given your comment to bub I assume he is referring to my own arguments about his system - in his case I have heard all the components in his system though not all at the same time therefore I am well qualified to comment on it.
Anyway ... I beleive this thread has gone somewhat off course. It being concerned with determining the most effective type of active air suspension as I have decided to take that route and wish to get a handle on other peoples experiences. I look forward to receiving some info from Penance next week. I guess the discussion on whether to go for that route at all or suspended or non-suspended might be considered vaguely related or at least not too distracting!
analoguekid
Planet Rush
brizonbiovizier said:
Hooray that was my point, Porsche inc those tyres as part of the cost, but they also ensure that the person owning the car will have it with optimum performance, Brinkman (and any others)should do the same, if the price goes up then so what, TBH I bet it's a lot more like smoke and mirros stuff though, "oh you don't like my fancy TT, have you looked at support........"
sorry but theres one born every minute, and more in hifi than most, is it any wonder when you come on here and perpetuate this nonsense.
You are paying the same for those tyres whether they are included in the cost or not. The cost of the car being increased to account for them. I am sure any dealer will be happy to sell you a tss or vibraplane to go with the BL. Your only point appears to be that you want one item on the invoice not two. A point not really worth making. Not everyone wants an SEM bench in their front room but every car does need tyres. Big difference.
Have you compared suspended v non-suspended on air suspension v non a-s stands? If not you are not in a good position to denounce my point of view. There are sound scientific reasons why this should be the case as I have stated and the effect can be clearly demonstrated. As I believe that stands are largely irrelevent for all items except decks and that the different air suspension stands largely only matter for non-suspended decks, that cables are a big con, that most hifi is rubbish and usually take the arch-skeptic position on every issue then you can hardly accuse me of buying snake oil or being an over credulous consumer. If I am spouting nonsense then please produce a reasoned technical argument why that is the case. So far you havent produced anything.
http://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13194&page=1&pp=15&highlight=suspended
This is the thread dealing with suspended v non-suspended debate.
Have you compared suspended v non-suspended on air suspension v non a-s stands? If not you are not in a good position to denounce my point of view. There are sound scientific reasons why this should be the case as I have stated and the effect can be clearly demonstrated. As I believe that stands are largely irrelevent for all items except decks and that the different air suspension stands largely only matter for non-suspended decks, that cables are a big con, that most hifi is rubbish and usually take the arch-skeptic position on every issue then you can hardly accuse me of buying snake oil or being an over credulous consumer. If I am spouting nonsense then please produce a reasoned technical argument why that is the case. So far you havent produced anything.
http://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13194&page=1&pp=15&highlight=suspended
This is the thread dealing with suspended v non-suspended debate.
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Nick,
Your anally retentive approach to 'they must have got it wrong' because mine is soo good. Doesn't wash I'm afraid.
I don't discuss invidual details of Clients equipment to anone other than the client.
Surfice to say, The word festidious doesn't even come close with this gent.
Ian,
That be the fellow, Pretty sure he ran an adaptive set on his car, I seem to remember a 'hoo har' over its use at prescott a fair few seasons back.
He used to work at Benetton I think?
The active suspension, when working correctly
could produce some quite remarkable results, though driving the vehicle took some 're-adjusting'
You had to complete learn to drive it all over again.
Lap times we initally worse at first due to the driver (Ex kart guy & Bro in law Martin B) trying to fight it all the time.
Once we'd 'helped' said gent to re-aquaint himself with new gizmo's, he qucikly set about dragging the lap times down over a 6 week period and mucho use of Avon slicks and abuse of Castle coombe & Silverstone
We did all our own development work and fook ups ourself, Martin isn't short of a few shillings, promgramming by our in house guy Mr Pryce (bit of a whizz with HI-Q), and mechancials by yours Truley & Dowtys , Braided hoses and fitting By Dave Grant (RIP) Braided Steel. A lot of blood sweat and tears and failures too. Never had telemetric data aquistion in those days. though they only let you use it practice now I think?
Wm
Your anally retentive approach to 'they must have got it wrong' because mine is soo good. Doesn't wash I'm afraid.
I don't discuss invidual details of Clients equipment to anone other than the client.
Surfice to say, The word festidious doesn't even come close with this gent.
Ian,
That be the fellow, Pretty sure he ran an adaptive set on his car, I seem to remember a 'hoo har' over its use at prescott a fair few seasons back.
He used to work at Benetton I think?
The active suspension, when working correctly
could produce some quite remarkable results, though driving the vehicle took some 're-adjusting'You had to complete learn to drive it all over again.
Lap times we initally worse at first due to the driver (Ex kart guy & Bro in law Martin B) trying to fight it all the time.
Once we'd 'helped' said gent to re-aquaint himself with new gizmo's, he qucikly set about dragging the lap times down over a 6 week period and mucho use of Avon slicks
and abuse of Castle coombe & SilverstoneWe did all our own development work and fook ups ourself, Martin isn't short of a few shillings, promgramming by our in house guy Mr Pryce (bit of a whizz with HI-Q), and mechancials by yours Truley & Dowtys
, Braided hoses and fitting By Dave Grant (RIP) Braided Steel. A lot of blood sweat and tears and failures too. Never had telemetric data aquistion in those days. though they only let you use it practice now I think?Wm
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WM - I have never said that. Suspended can work well - there are just sound technical reasons why non-suspended can work better. And thats a convenient get out to avoid saying whether the support was air suspension or not. I assume you mean fastidious. Its usually me that cant spell! Well I can only take your word for that as you have provided no evidence. If you disagree with me about my technical arguments then you can post why without compromising any professional ethic, if you beleive suspended is better than non-suspended then produce an argument supporting that assertion.
AK - Take sme. They make an arm and deck combination but dont make a cartridge. Do they then choose an "optimal" cartridge and supply it with the deck included in the price? No they dont - and so neither is the BL supplied with a table in the price for the same reason. This argument seems a bit absurd, other than you saw a rockport or something with a built in isolation system - which is soemthing different and 5 times the price.
AK - Take sme. They make an arm and deck combination but dont make a cartridge. Do they then choose an "optimal" cartridge and supply it with the deck included in the price? No they dont - and so neither is the BL supplied with a table in the price for the same reason. This argument seems a bit absurd, other than you saw a rockport or something with a built in isolation system - which is soemthing different and 5 times the price.
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brizonbiovizier said:
With all respect, I beleive that SME take the view that all carts are imperfect (as indeed are all transducers) and that the deck should provide a totally neutral platform for the owner to select his or her type of poison.
That is very different from producing an admirable but ultimately unfinished product.
analoguekid
Planet Rush
brizonbiovizier said:
I know that Nick, but as you state, the brinkman obviously needs its support, otherwise I'm paying all that money and only getting 50% of what it could do(that was what you said?) If Mr Brinkman was so determined to get the sound right for his TT, he'd ensure all were sold with the correct and optimised system of support, just as porsche would never sell you a car than ran on four skinny spares, even though the car would be adequate as a form of transport.
Nick if your happy throwing money at expensive kit, that needs other things to sound it's best, it's no wonder the brinkmans of the world and their dealers are happy, they can see you lot coming.
analoguekid
Planet Rush
you started itbrizonbiovizier said:
Sm - please stick to the topic under discussion from the thread. I certainly have nothing to fear from embaressment. Please substitute rigourous and perfectionist for single minded - my mind is open to many possibilities but I will certainly analyse them all ruthlessly, which might be mistaken for evangelism. ;-). Given my choices like diy I can not really be accused of swallowing sales pitch - if that were the case I would have a very different system. Should I hear anything better I will buy it immediately. Even now I am plotting the purchase of a koetsu airtangent combination and a two arm base upgrade for the lagrange.
Wrt sme - no it is exactly the same thing. All decks and arms are also ultimately imperfect as well as cartridges, though they do induce less colouration as they are not mechanical transducers. The sme V still deviates from neutrality in some areas however (I speak as an ex-owner) and its mechanical properties will suit some cartridges and decks better than others. SME dont make a cartridge so they dont provide one, just as the BL doesnt include the support as Mr B doesnt make one. The turntable cant work without a cartridge either so it is also "unfinished" so there is no difference. In fact you could argue it is more unfinished as it wont work at all as is without a third party product. Not that it matters anyway.
AK - the brinkmann needs its support in the same way a ferrari needs high performance tyres. Sure you can fit retreads but it wont perform as well. However cars are by convention supplied with tyes and decks are not by convention provided with supports even though they all benefit from isolation. The support cost me less than 5% of the cost of the deck so its hardly unreasonable given the benefits. Plus part of that cost is offset by the fact that I would have bought a support table for all my kit anyway so the premium is negligible. Brinkmann sells decks not supports. He will advise but the rest is up to you. Same as sme with cartridges no doubt. As I said before given my philosophy and kit choices you cannot accuse me of being an over credulous consumer. Lets hear instead a technical reason from you why my argument is snake oil and one that involves turntables rather than cars. I think you will find you started this rather bizarre discussion of supports being included in the price of the deck.
I think this particular aspect of the thread is getting a bit old now - everything has been said and we will have to agree to disagree and perhaps move onto more interesting and relevent topics, unless some technical opposition to my arguments is forthcoming.
Wrt sme - no it is exactly the same thing. All decks and arms are also ultimately imperfect as well as cartridges, though they do induce less colouration as they are not mechanical transducers. The sme V still deviates from neutrality in some areas however (I speak as an ex-owner) and its mechanical properties will suit some cartridges and decks better than others. SME dont make a cartridge so they dont provide one, just as the BL doesnt include the support as Mr B doesnt make one. The turntable cant work without a cartridge either so it is also "unfinished" so there is no difference. In fact you could argue it is more unfinished as it wont work at all as is without a third party product. Not that it matters anyway.
AK - the brinkmann needs its support in the same way a ferrari needs high performance tyres. Sure you can fit retreads but it wont perform as well. However cars are by convention supplied with tyes and decks are not by convention provided with supports even though they all benefit from isolation. The support cost me less than 5% of the cost of the deck so its hardly unreasonable given the benefits. Plus part of that cost is offset by the fact that I would have bought a support table for all my kit anyway so the premium is negligible. Brinkmann sells decks not supports. He will advise but the rest is up to you. Same as sme with cartridges no doubt. As I said before given my philosophy and kit choices you cannot accuse me of being an over credulous consumer. Lets hear instead a technical reason from you why my argument is snake oil and one that involves turntables rather than cars. I think you will find you started this rather bizarre discussion of supports being included in the price of the deck.
I think this particular aspect of the thread is getting a bit old now - everything has been said and we will have to agree to disagree and perhaps move onto more interesting and relevent topics, unless some technical opposition to my arguments is forthcoming.
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