All aboard the atheist bus?

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Bob McC said:
Men can't do miracles.
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Quite the point! No-one, not even Jesus, implied that it was a normal experience.

Haselsh1: There would never be sufficient proof for some. Contemporaries and those living shortly thereafter would have found it easy to contest, and we would have evidence of their denials that miracles were done. But no, the dispute centres on how were they done.
 
I think the problem here lies with the fact that miracles are a figment of our imagination and therefore, as such, there will never be any evidence nor any proof.
 
Haselsh1 said:
Don't get me wrong... when I said there was quite a lot of evidence for a Jesus I was referring to archeological evidence and not the bible.
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I was under the impression that once one dug down there was little if any credible evidence Jesus existed at all, in fact much of his life seems to be an amalgam of other religions of the period, I've certainly heard of the Dec 25 (Winter solstice), 12 disciples, miracles, ascension concepts used elsewhere, and allegedly earlier (Zoroastrianism, Mithraism etc).

I'm not biblical scholar by any stretch, what with being an atheist and all, but even things one would expect, like any Roman reference to his life or execution, are conspicuous by their absence. There are apparently records of those crucified at that time period plus the Romans were a pretty bureaucratic people. There is clearly evidence of the birth of a Christian religious movement from 150-200 years or so afterwards, but I've personally seen nothing that stands up to scrutiny about Jesus' life. That 150-200 year timeframe gives plenty of time for a folk law / myth to develop given short life-spans, poor education, low literacy etc, i.e. few folk had the ability to document anything accurately, it was just told word of mouth generation to generation.

I'm not looking to prove / disprove anything here as I don't buy religion in any shape or form, but it would be interesting to see what you considered as hard archaeological evidence for his existence, as I have to admit I've seen nothing yet, only evidence of a later religion.

Tony.
 
The letter of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan is often adduced as evidence for earlier dating:

http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?pageno=117&fk_files=2025
section XCVII66 and the following page has Trajan's reply.

Trajan was emperor from 98 to 117, and Pliny lived from about 61 to about 113 (He saw the Vesuvius eruption in 79 and wrote about it.)
His letter to Trajan concerning Christians were written from Bythinia-Pontus, where he was governor, in the Nothwest of Asia Minor, so by this time the Christian religion had spread quite a long way.
 
Czechchris said:
Contemporaries and those living shortly thereafter would have found it easy to contest, and we would have evidence of their denials that miracles were done. But no, the dispute centres on how were they done.
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I'm hoping that in a couple of hundred years there'll be a new religion: Blaineinanity. They'll have DVDs and all that.
 
interesting that many saw him alive after he was crucified. not many people rise from the dead unless they are pretty special .

there was a trial lawyer by the name of frank morrison . He did not believe in god and for years promised himself that one day he would write a book to disprove jesus`s resurrection forever.
at last he got the time , he did a huge amount of research he became a christian he wrote a book called `who moved the stone` . in it starting from the most critical approach to the new testament documents he concludes that you can explain the trial and conviction of jesus only on the basis that he himself had foretold his death and resurrection.

josephus a jewish historian in his book `antiquities` " Now there was about this time jesus , a wise man , if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works , a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. This man was the Christ. And when Pilate had condemmned him to the cross ,upon his impeachment by the principal man among us , those who loved him from the first did not forsake him , he appeared alive on the third day .....

fascinating stuff .
 
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interesting that many saw him alive after he was crucified.

No they didn't.

If I claim that at Man Utd's last home match an alien landed on the pitch that's one person claiming it not 75,000.
 
TonyL said:
I've personally seen nothing that stands up to scrutiny about Jesus' life. That 150-200 year timeframe gives plenty of time for a folk law / myth to develop given short life-spans, poor education, low literacy etc, i.e. few folk had the ability to document anything accurately, it was just told word of mouth generation to generation.

I'm not looking to prove / disprove anything here as I don't buy religion in any shape or form, but it would be interesting to see what you considered as hard archaeological evidence for his existence, as I have to admit I've seen nothing yet, only evidence of a later religion.

Tony.
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you could examine the work of sir william michael ramsey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Mitchell_Ramsay

who is regarded as one of the greatest archeologists ever to have lived . he was trained in the german historical school of the mod nineteenth century. as a result he was taught that the book of ACTS [in the new testament] was a product of the mid second century A.D.

He aws firmly convinced of this and set out to prove this teaching . However he was compelled to a complete reversal of his beliefs due to the overwhelming evidence uncovered in his research.

" It was at one time conceded that luke had missed the boat in the events he portrayed surrounding the birth of jesus [luke 2 v1-3] They argued there was no census , that quirinius was not governor of Syria and that everyone did not have to return to their ancestral home. "

archeological discoveries prove that Romans had regular enrolment of taxpayers and held census every 14 years and took place in either 23-22bc or 9-8 bc . the latter would be the one to which luke refers.

an inscription found in antioch ascribed Quirinius as governor of syria .

and a papyrus found in egypt gave directions to the census.


there is loads of archeological evidence if you search for it
 
Bob McC said:
interesting that many saw him alive after he was crucified.

No they didn't.

If I claim that at Man Utd's last home match an alien landed on the pitch that's one person claiming it not 75,000.
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i think there was more than one .
he appeared to the women at the tomb
then by a lake to some fishermen
then on a mountain by 500 people
and many other separate occurences
 
Bob McC said:
And only 4 written accounts, 3 of which are based oin the first!
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Actually Paul refers to the 500 people seeing the resurrected Jesus in a letter written about the year 55 to Christians in Corinth. He makes the point that many of these eyewitnesses were still alive, and therefore could be questioned about it.
 
Czechchris said:
Actually Paul refers to the 500 people seeing the resurrected Jesus in a letter written about the year 55 to Christians in Corinth. He makes the point that many of these eyewitnesses were still alive, and therefore could be questioned about it.
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You don't seriously believe this nonsense, do you?
 
I find it rather alarming that there are such naive and gullible people at large that can take so seriously a figment of their imagination.
 
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