Best speakers for Jazz & Classical?

[3DSonics]

Hi,

Looking at the budget, its just not really viable for things like 12" or 15" speakers.

Emporium currently lists a pair of 12" Tannoy Monitor Gold 12" Drivers in Lancaster Cabinets for £ 700, so well in budget I'd say and you can find stuff like that much cheaper, a mate recently bought a pair Tannoy Gold 15's in Lancasters for £ 500 and with a little bit of TLC and restoration they completely outclass his rather more expensive "High End" speakers (Zingali, with dual 8" Woofers IIRC)....

Ciao T

 

[Stereo Mic]

Moving them away from the rear wall may improve LF clarity

And increase time smear of bass transients - no doubt a consideration in Nestarovic's design thinking.

If you are employing a no compromise approach, the best solution is to excite all room nodes and to EQ the room with numerous bass traps to even out the response. You are then left with a bottom end which is directional, and accurate in the time domain, as well as increasing the dynamic capability of the driving amplification.

So no Thorsten, there is no problem with the logic - simply your interpretation of it.

 

[wadia-miester]

This is good, even AA never 'slapped Thorsen around so much, excellent ring side seats guys thanks :lol:

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

So no Thorsten, there is no problem with the logic - simply your interpretation of it.

I'm not getting into that again. Anyone in possession of a Library card may obtain a book on basic acoustics to see what is going on and who is right, what can be done with bass traps and so on.

L8er T

 

[bottleneck]

Hi,



Emporium currently lists a pair of 12" Tannoy Monitor Gold 12" Drivers in Lancaster Cabinets for £ 700, so well in budget I'd say and you can find stuff like that much cheaper, a mate recently bought a pair Tannoy Gold 15's in Lancasters for £ 500 and with a little bit of TLC and restoration they completely outclass his rather more expensive "High End" speakers (Zingali, with dual 8" Woofers IIRC)....

Ciao T

Tannoy golds for £500?

Then he was a lucky chap! - that is a hard thing to find for that kind of money.

Much as I like Tannoys (and I really do, no, I REALLY do!) - it wouldnt be my first choice for jazz in a small room.

 

[Stereo Mic]

Thorsten,

I've actually set systems up like this. Systems that work superbly. As according to all reports does Titians. It is easy to sit in you little room theorising, but a little experimentation would not go amiss.

Personally I prefer to EQ the bass in such setups rather than treat the room, it's far easier. But given the space and appropriate traps such as the Modex units it is possible to treat down to 40hz and careful selection of the listening position will work wonders. Of course with digital EQ all of these concerns become a thing of the past. And of course not boundary loading an EQ'ed subwoofer is a very bad idea indeed.

 

[titian]

Maybe this thread is not the right one for a contraversial or discussion of the LF of the System 16 but I would like to give a few practical facts.(maybe a Moderator could put the OT postings in a new thread?).
A part from the fact that technical specs for this system are nearly impossible to get since Nestorovic himself gave them rarely out and the last ones were given over 10 years ago; clarity, intensity, precision and quickness of the LF are in this system simply amazing. I never had apparently acoustical problems with this system in the different rooms I installed it, when using the settings given by Nestorovic. ..or maybe I wasn't aware of them? Problems arised mainly when I started to do acoustic treatments half the way and trying to play around with different kinds of positions inclusive other heights.

But back to the facts concerning specs: since the publication of the last specs, Nestorovic has upgraded his system three time using different materials for the inlining of the speakers, type of electronics, patterns to help the diffusion of the sound, and new tweeters.
All these changes didn't come in the "official" specs. Also there are very very few of these systems around (since year 2000 not more than 10) to be able to analyze it and see exactly what is inside and how it was made. Even if I believe Nestorovic didn't change the way the two 12" work together, he did changes (cone material?), which gave much more LF clarity in comparison to the versions before year 1999. I don't really know how much "directionality" Thorsten wants /needs, I can only say that even in the most complexed orchestral works, you can definitely hear exactly were for example the bass drum is positioned. I don't know if that concerns his interpretation of LF directionality. It is very nice to look into specs but it would be even better to see yourself if the reality is according to the theory and if the owner of a system is not just positively exagerating.

 

[technobear]

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

to be able to analyze it and see exactly what is inside and how it was made.

I am refering here to fundamental principles of operation, as to what analysed, namely how the different woofers work together. Anyone interrested is best off consulting the Patent.

I don't really know how much "directionality" Thorsten wants /needs, I can only say that even in the most complexed orchestral works, you can definitely hear exactly were for example the bass drum is positioned.

What you are refering to is actually called imaging/soundstaging in the Englishspeaking areas, not directionality or directivity, which is a technical term analog to the german "buendelungsmass". Imaging is mainly (but not solely) driven by higher frequencies than the low bass.

I don't know if that concerns his interpretation of LF directionality. It is very nice to look into specs but it would be even better to see yourself if the reality is according to the theory and if the owner of a system is not just positively exagerating.

I am not at all disputing that the Nestorovic system makes fine sound. I merely felt the need to correct SM on some serious illogic and technically inaccurate statements.

Past that, room modes and their excitation, speaker placement etc. is far from an exact science. However, the remarks you cited about the Gentleman who prefers the TWR point, to me at least, strongly towards a room mode issue.

One is not allways conciously aware of the effects of room modes, they become annoyingly audible usually if one actually hears the same system with them reduced/removed or the same music on a system one finds generally agreeable but in which they are absent, the effect more often that not is not so much a "dragging" or overly resonant bass, but (due to a process known as masking) an aparent suppression of certain lower midrange sounds.

You can easily try this by working out the room modes your system excites and by equalising them out and comparing. You may find that a cheap and cheerfull equaliser damages the sound in other areas more than you are willing to accept, a good methode of comparison is to use a copy of the same CD pre-processed on the PC adjusting only the room modes using high quality, mastering grade EQ Software, this allows an easy and highly effective comparison.

Ciao T

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

I've actually set systems up like this.

So have I, using electronic EQ in preference to acoustic measures. I even wrote a pretty extensive guide how to do that a good few years ago. Having had the chance to compare such setups to a number of other options I find them a choice better than many, but materially inferior to more radical approaches.

Of course with digital EQ all of these concerns become a thing of the past. And of course not boundary loading an EQ'ed subwoofer is a very bad idea indeed.

And of course (in case you where unaware) I wrote exactly that around 5 years ago, though I did spend considerable time too dwelling on the superior alternatives....

Meanwhile I still recommend a good basic book on acoustics and maybe another on music, then maybe you can avoid to come up with such ridiculous ideas as "Bass Transients" (the issue is obvious, again).

But I have no need to argue with you and to annoy in the process those who desperatly wish to avoid actually understanding acoustics and technicalities....

L8er T

 

[Stereo Mic]

Thorsten,

As ever, when shown to be wrong you retaliate by trying to convince by belittling others. Poor show really.

I know, I know, as John Crabbe used to say (and probably still does), "There's no such thing as a bass transient!"ââ'¬â€and he's right. As pointed out in this month's "Letters" section, the harmonic content that goes to form the leading edge of, say, the sound of a bass drum struck hard, is much higher in frequency: in the upper midrange and above. But what else would you call the sound of a drum? "Bass transient" describes precisely the fact that the sound carries a good deal of low-frequency energy, all of which arrives at the same time.

For your reference, that's a quote from Stereophile explaining the commonly used term "bass transient" for you. Apologies for it being less than scientific but then I find most of the people I talk to understand it better than the egocentric pseudo-latin protestations you seem to use.

Trust me here, I really don't need a book, nor your egotistical ramblings, as my understanding of acoustics is more than suffice thank you.

Far greater minds than yours or mine have employed methods such as Nestarovic's which clearly produce exceptional results (and produce directional bass ;-) ). I have yet to see any glowing testimonials to your efforts however, despite your using Zerogain to promote 3D whateveritis at every opportunity.

With regards to the subwoofers in question, please do note that Titian's crossover at 200hz, mine used to crossover at 375hz. I rather doubt your experiments with the little behringer and those cheap Rels was able to oprate in this manner so it is highly unlikely that your experince is relevent.

Ciao M

 

[amir]

Faced with what seems like a multitude of possibilities I would appreciate some advice on my next speaker upgrade to take place in the New Year. I am looking for something that will give me scale, soundstage and dynamics. I listen to 60% jazz, 30% classical along with some acoustic rock and no electronic or dance.
My last speakers were Dyn 52's and were fine at higher volumes but a bit soft and in the box at lower levels. I wonder if they were actually too 'big' for my room, which is 5m X 5m. I live in a terraced house so the speakers need to sound good and lively at medium levels without having to be driven loudly.
I will be using a Marantz CD6000OSE or a Project Expression TT as source and driving the speakers with a 100W Tripath-based digital amp.
I'm looking for something in the region of £500-£750 second hand.

At the moment my thoughts are on -

Triangle Antal ES
ART Stilletto
Dali Ikon

Anyone have any thoughts or recommendations?

I think it's not a bad idea if you listen to manger speakers.
they are not most neutral in all area but their mid and high frequency is quite good for the price.
quad may be expensive but it is worth for audition

 

[locky]

Thanks for the suggestions...The Quads look intriguing but there's just no way they'd be allowed in the living room. Some of the suggestions look a bit hard to come by 2nd hand so I think I'll need to be patient and keep my eyes peeled!

 

[Matt F]

Harbeth Compacy 7-ES2 :slayer:

Should be able to find a used pair for around £750.

Matt.