Burn/Break-in

Originally posted by wadia-miester
, I for got to take them off the cooker & the had 12 hours more than I would normaly give them, the result, dull/lifeless & closed in stage and very curtailed top end
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:eek:

How do you rectify that !?!
 
Originally posted by Gambit
Yes, thats the stuff. However, just because it's a insulator doesn't mean enegry tranfer can't happen. Hit a block of Teflon with a bolt of lightning and it doesn't bouce off because it's non conducting, it melts the bastard - Energy transfer. Tiny, very quick enegry tranfer is possible, or so I'm lead to believe. Yes, I could be and probably are, well out on this one.
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Remember that a bolt of lightning is about a zillion volts, and it can force anything to become a conductor, often demolishing it on the way - which is why they fit lightning conductors to church spires. At the sort of voltages we're talking about, there'd be no melting, only slight softening at most, and in the case of PTFE, no change in structure whatsoever - the reason for the choice of PTFE is because it's so stable and inert (which is why fluorinated hydrocarbons are making such a mess of the ozone layer). Sorry, Gambit, the energy transfer argument just doesn't wash. And what if there was "tiny, very quick energy transfer"? The electricity will still not conduct through the coating but through the preferential path of the conducting wire.
 
Originally posted by voodoo
Nobody mention 'Skin Effect' !

:duck:
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I once did, to some radio engineers of my acquaintance. When I left them, they were still helpless on the floor with laughter.
 
Originally posted by joel
Yes. They suck the reason from unsuspecting mortal brains. Beware of really thick cables, cos that's what they'll make you. Really thick ;)
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Better put this on the Shunyata (or whatever it's called) thread...
 
Originally posted by tones
Remember that a bolt of lightning is about a zillion volts, and it can force anything to become a conductor, often demolishing it on the way - which is why they fit lightning conductors to church spires. At the sort of voltages we're talking about, there'd be no melting, only slight softening at most, and in the case of PTFE, no change in structure whatsoever - the reason for the choice of PTFE is because it's so stable and inert (which is why fluorinated hydrocarbons are making such a mess of the ozone layer). Sorry, Gambit, the energy transfer argument just doesn't wash. And what if there was "tiny, very quick energy transfer"? The electricity will still not conduct through the coating but through the preferential path of the conducting wire.
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Tones, I really don't doubt you at all mate. I did start a Chem Eng degree, but most of the knowledge garnered was erased by weed, booze and Trisha. I'll try and find the article or advert, as it's probably by a cable manufacturer (which destroys all form of credibility in most peoples minds, I'm sure, but I've got to try).
 
Originally posted by joel
Yes. They suck the reason from unsuspecting mortal brains. Beware of really thick cables, cos that's what they'll make you. Really thick.

Originally posted by tones
Better put this on the Shunyata (or whatever it's called) thread...
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Try a Russ Andrews Yello powerkord. They defy the laws of physics by being able to simultaniously suck and blow at the same time :D.
 
The electrical behavior of the dielectric (insulating material) is much more important in low level cables. Dielectric involvement (the way in which a particular material absorbs and releases energy), has a profound effect on an audio or video signal. Dielectric constant, the most often quoted specification for insulating material, is actually not very helpful in understanding the audible attributes of different materials. The coefficient of absorption value is more relevant, and the dissipation factor and the velocity of propagation are even more useful.

The problem is that any insulating material next to a conductor acts like a capacitor which stores and later releases energy. This is true of circuit board materials, cables, resistors and of course capacitors. The ideal wire is one with no insulation except for air. When a solid material must be applied, it should be electrically invisible, meaning that the less energy it absorbs, the better. The energy which is absorbed should stay absorbed (turned into heat, a high dissipation factor), and the energy which does come back into the metal conductor should have minimal phase shift and not be frequency selective (a high velocity of propagation, independent of frequency). All dielectrics absorb more energy at higher frequencies, but some are more linear in their overall behavior relative to frequency.

The most commonly used insulations are PVC, polyethylene, polypropylene and Teflon. These can be mixed with air (foamed) or applied in ways which maximize the amount of air around the metal strands. Which material is used and how it is applied will dramatically affect the performance of a low-level cable.

Capacitance is more important in low-level than high-level cables for two reasons. If a long, "over the cliff" high capacitance cable is used, many preamplifiers, CD players, tuners, surround processors, etc., will not be able to "drive" the cable. The resulting distortion does not happen within the cable, but is caused by using the cable. There is never a disadvantage to using low capacitance low-level cables.

The other important reason for low capacitance is that high capacitance causes greater field strength between the positive and negative conductors (and the shield). This means more energy is put into the dielectric material. There is always a priority to minimize dielectric involvement, through proper selection of materials and low capacitance design.

Running-In: As with all audio components, audio cables require an adjustment period. This is often mistakenly referred to as "break-in". However, break-in is properly used to describe a mechanical change-engines break-in, loudspeaker and phono cartridge suspensions break-in. A cable's performance takes time to optimize because of the way a dielectric behaves (the way the insulating material absorbs and releases energy), changes in the presence of a charge. Cables will continue to improve in sound or picture quality over a period of several weeks. This is the same reason amplifiers, preamplifiers and CD players also require an adjustment period. The key difference between "adjusting" and "breaking-in" is that things don't "un-break-in", however, electrical components do "un-adjust". Several weeks of disuse will return a cable to nearly its original state.

The run-in time is essentially the same for all cables. However, the apparent need for run-in varies wildly. As with amplifiers and other components, the better the cable, the less distortion it has, and therefore the less there is to cover up the obnoxious distortion caused by being new. Since human perception is more aware of the existence of a distortion than the quantity, the better the cable, the worse in some ways it will sound when new, because the anemic forced two-dimensional effect reulting from being new will not be ameliorated by other gentler distortions. Please be patient when first listening to any superior product
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Found it on the AudioQuest site.
 
Thanks, shall digest. But at a very quick glance, it sounds like self-promoting humbug - lots of unsupported definite statements ("Such-and-such is very important").
 
Originally posted by penance
but skin effect is a known electrical phenomena
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You are correct it is. But is only an issue in the MHz range the Khz range that the ear can detect.

It is relevant for Video cables.

Be that as it may. iIt is an effect that is there all the time and is slightly off topic whilst discusing burn/break in
 
Perhaps a more likely explanation of burn-in if it cannot be technically explained is that it is the listener that 'burns-in'. In other words, the listener will adapt and get used to small differences in sound. For example, this weekend I got on a train carriage with a distinct smell of vomit (apologies for the unpleasant subject matter). But by the end of the journey I didn't really notice it anymore. Perhaps smells burn-in on public transport or perhaps I simply got used to it?

I'd also be interested to know if the real believers in stuff like this could point to things in the hi-fi world that others believe in but they don't. Or will it be only silly things like coating the top of CD players with custard* that everyone will agree has no audible benefit?

* Not that I know of anyone who does claim this.
 
Originally posted by notaclue
Or will it be only silly things like coating the top of CD players with custard* that everyone will agree has no audible benefit?

* Not that I know of anyone who does claim this.
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I wonder if custard might act to damp the casework ;) .
 
I understand the scepticism, and I can't explain 'burning-in' either. I even wondered myself if it was a 'getting used to it' phenomenon. But how do you explain my example where I replaced NACA5 with NACA5?

I remember a similar debate 30 years ago when different sounding turntables and amplifiers were said by electronics 'experts' to be the stuff of overactive minds, and they had oscilloscopes to prove it couldn't be true. People that claimed to hear differences in cables were regarded as barking as a barking dog in a barking contest in Barking. Now no one gives the concept a second thought.
 
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Originally posted by cookiemonster
Does it give one pleasure deconstructing the universe, or is it merely an instinctive, unalterable life force? I can't claim to doubt that these things are so nicely packaged, like a wooden ship in a glass bottle, firm, unalterable, and magical..... but really.....do you feel more alive to the sound of music as a consequence of this knowledge?
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Strange it may seems to your little brain but it seems for some of us the answer is a definite ---- YES.

:D
 
Originally posted by penance
but skin effect is a known electrical phenomena
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It certainly is, but it only is a nuisance in the MHz frequency range - quite a big one too, so radio engineers have to take it into account in the design of radio circuits. The thing that made my engineers roll over was the thought that there could be any noticeable skin effect associated with frequencies in the audio range. They found it too ridiculous for words.
 
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Originally posted by Gambit
Found it on the AudioQuest site.
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OK, read it, and I think it is a load of self-justifying humbug. Rarely have I seen so many unsubstantiated definite statements in the one place!

One thing puzzles me, and perhaps someone with electronics knowledge can explain it to me. As I understand it, a capacitor is an electrical component consisting of two layers or plates of conducting material with dielectric in between. This arrangement is fundamental to its ability to store charge. So, if you have a cable in a dielectric, you have one conductor and one dielectric. How on earth can the thing store charge like a capacitor? A conductor is missing.

In short, I think this article is complete clop, but I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise by someone who knows more about electronics than I (which is nearly everybody). However, this article seems to fail on simple logic alone. But then, that would appear to be par for the course in the oleaginous reptilian fluid business.
 
Tone
many cables have capacitance
most cables (in the context we are talking) will consist of a conducter with its insulater and that will be adjacent or joined to another conducter with its insulater.

Think of many of the budget cables, a figure of 8 type cable, so 2 conducters with insulaters right next to each other. Most mains cables are of the same construction aswell ( cables in your wall, not flex).
Many cables will have a braided or plaited geometry, this can also have a capacitance.
I couldnt comment on the effects of this to an audio signal, but i know it is a concern to mechanism's we design at work.
Now, if i consider my phono stage that i built myself (so at least i have a vague knowledge of the circuiot), imediatly before the output sockets is a 1UF PP cap. The signal travels through that cap, and the value is critical. I know it is critical as i have tried a higher value with dire results. So imagine i use a cable with high capacitance to connect my phono amp to my int amp, in effect that cable will add capacitance to the output of my phono amp, and hence influence the sonics of it.
 

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