Burn/Break-in

tones,
like penance says. for example naim amps are known to become unstable if you put a high capacitance cable on them (such as russ andrews 8tc - or that doyen for diyers ffrc both of which are twisted or plaited multiple cables) nac a5 has 2 well spaced conductors and as such has low capacitance - i'm regurgitating verbatim here so tell me if i'm in error.

cheers


julian
 
Voodoo, how do you treat that 'over cooked cable', like a JD hang over, leave in a dark room for 3 weeks :D
Skin effect :MILD: OK, as others have stated it's only in the 'wide boy band', the audio 20khz isn't going to see diddly of this, however serveral top notch cable makers use the Hyper litz micro-fine wire strands & bundle them in packets, to help reduce the skin effect (there words), however a couple of the cables are rather good to be fair.
anyway burn in, didn't you guys go off coarse a little? Wm
 
Originally posted by joel
Yes. They suck the reason from unsuspecting mortal brains. Beware of really thick cables, cos that's what they'll make you. Really thick ;)
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Fabulous insight Joel,

I believe I own the thickest cables of any of the forum's esteemed members. And yes, I am decidedly thick!

Better put this on the Shunyata (or whatever it's called) thread...
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Now Tones, Shunyata is actually quite thin cable with athick comartment around it to hold it's Fesi compound. So not thick at all, but you would be if you thought it was;)
 
One thing puzzles me, and perhaps someone with electronics knowledge can explain it to me. As I understand it, a capacitor is an electrical component consisting of two layers or plates of conducting material with dielectric in between. This arrangement is fundamental to its ability to store charge. So, if you have a cable in a dielectric, you have one conductor and one dielectric. How on earth can the thing store charge like a capacitor? A conductor is missing.
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Cables are only useful if there's a circuit. This implies two conductors, even if one of them is the earth. The capacitance in question is that between the conductors. Most audio cabling contains the two conductors in some arrangement and is specified with a capacitance per metre, look in the RS catalogue for examples...

So imagine i use a cable with high capacitance to connect my phono amp to my int amp, in effect that cable will add capacitance to the output of my phono amp, and hence influence the sonics of it.
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A cable's capacitance is shunt, between the signal and earth. The typical capacitor in the output or input of an amp is series, in line with the signal.

Paul
 
Originally posted by merlin
Fabulous insight Joel,
I believe I own the thickest cables of any of the forum's esteemed members. And yes, I am decidedly thick!
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Why thank you Merlin. I didn't realise. You seem to be holding up well. Maybe you have a Russ Andrews *SHADOW* that automagically reduces the pesky unwanted side effects of the alien cable brain snatchers to practically nothing?
So the Shunyata is actually a very thin cable in very thick packaging. Is that what is meant by expensive wrapping?
 
Some interesting articles on cables here
, including one on skin effect here.

Couldn't find anything on break-in, but then it's late, I'm tired, and I couldn't be bothered to look very hard. I'm sure I've read interesting stuff about dielectrics, and I thought it was on this site, but I couldn't find it, so perhaps not.

Dunc
 
Originally posted by wolfgang
Strange it may seems to your little brain but it seems for some of us the answer is a definite ---- YES.

:D
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Wolfgang, you're brain is just too large to penetrate. I'll desist from asking stupid questions.
 
I thought I was right WRT capacitance in cables, esp. fig 8 layout (thanks for keeping the crazytweaks team alive there Pennance :D ).

WRT Skin Effect, I know it only affects the higher frequencies, but surely it all affects the signal? We can't hear 22K>Hz, but SACD going up to 192 seems to sound better, no? Mayhap what happens up at the top end effects the bottom end too. Like WM said, HyperLitz construction is pretty common in the v.high end cables - seems like hard work to make that cable when they could just tell you their standard stuff was just as good.
 
I have a sneaking feeling that capacitance is being used in two different senses here, but I don't really know. It seems to me that a cable can never be a true capacitor, because the two sides of the cable are subjected to different signals, whereas this is not true of a capacitor in a circuit. I suspect a strong Humbug Factor is at work here, the use of scientific terminology to convince people that there's a difference.

And why should the non-existent skin effect at lower frequencies have an effect on the signal? And what's this about SACD going up to 192? 192KHz? Who cares? There's almost certainly nothing up there to hear, so it doesn't matter (AFAIK, bat sonar frequencies are 'way above any overtones that any musical instrument can produce and they have a maximum at aroung 120KHz).

Cable manufacturers put so much into it for a very simple reason - money and gullible punters. There's no money in saying that any old cable will do. If the punters hear a difference, fine, I have no problems with that, just as long as they don't expect all of us to hear it. I remain a sceptic, and I still await the cable where I can hear a major improvement. Everything I've ever heard has either no difference at all or such slight differences that they could be attributed to one wanting to hear a difference, or a slight difference in volume level being interpreted as an improvement - experimental error if you like.

OK, my last word on the subject, I promise, I'll go and leave you all alone.
 
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Originally posted by tones
Cable manufacturers put so much into it for a very simple reason - money and gullible punters. There's no money in saying that any old cable will do. If the punters hear a difference, fine, I have no problems with that, just as long as they don't expect all of us to hear it.
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TBH, it's pretty offensive that you'd call anyone who hears a difference in cabling gullible. It's been established that you don't, which is fine, but it's also been established that some of us do - I don't call you wrong when you tell me you can't hear the difference, why do you feel the need to call me? At the end of the day, it's much like Cookie says - I don't know (or care) about the technicalities behind the stuff, all I know is if I like the change it makes and can justify the price, I'll consider it seriously.

N.B. I'm wrong on SACD sorry, it's 96kHz
 
Originally posted by tones
I have a sneaking feeling that capacitance is being used in two different senses here, but I don't really know. It seems to me that a cable can never be a true capacitor, because the two sides of the cable are subjected to different signals, whereas this is not true of a capacitor in a circuit.
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De-coupling ?
 
Gambit sacd is 54Khz, dvd-a is 96Khz sir, I'm not sure on the skin effect in audio sector, we do a lot of telecommunications stuff here as well, it has a relevence there, (I'm told by the guys in the lab here)
I've also heard great cables that don't subscribe to the skin effect theroy (in audio) so I'm playing devils advicate for a change :)
But Agree with Tones on a lot of stuff quite a few manufacturers use the 'Dazzle em with Diamonds' routine, we just use our ears :) Wm
 
Originally posted by wadia-miester
Gambit sacd is 54Khz, dvd-a is 96Khz sir, I'm not sure on the skin effect in audio sector, we do a lot of telecommunications stuff here as well, it has a relevence there, (I'm told by the guys in the lab here)
I've also heard great cables that don't subscribe to the skin effect theroy (in audio) so I'm playing devils advicate for a change :)
But Agree with Tones on a lot of stuff quite a few manufacturers use the 'Dazzle em with Diamonds' routine, we just use our ears :) Wm
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Ta WM, I can never remember.

I wasn't sure about skin effect nor putting forward support for, just ideas as to why it may be applicable.


I also think Tones is correct WRT some manufacturers and their OTT marketing and pseudoscience, but that's no need to go around calling people buying it. If Nordost Valhala or AudioQuest Everest rocks your world, who is anyone else to say you're a fool? I like to put an S.I.D. on any CD's I play, but I don't go around calling people who don't.
 
Originally posted by Gambit
TBH, it's pretty offensive that you'd call anyone who hears a difference in cabling gullible. It's been established that you don't, which is fine, but it's also been established that some of us do - I don't call you wrong when you tell me you can't hear the difference, why do you feel the need to call me? At the end of the day, it's much like Cookie says - I don't know (or care) about the technicalities behind the stuff, all I know is if I like the change it makes and can justify the price, I'll consider it seriously.

N.B. I'm wrong on SACD sorry, it's 96kHz
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Sorry, no offence meant, remark withdrawn. However, you gotta admit there are a lot of gullible people out there who will swallow this stuff, and the (mis)use of pseudo-technobabble assists in this. And people will often buy on price, ("Wow! If it costs that much, it must be good!") And, if they want to hear a difference (especially having forked out so much for it), they often do. I can vouch for this because I fell into this very trap and it took me a while to realise that I was kidding myself. I accept that you don't kid yourself, Gambit, but a lot of folk do - "the king's new clothes syndrome".

I had a feeling that you meant sampling rate by 192, but I wasn't sure. Anyway, as I say, I don't believe, you do, I have no problem with you believing, you hopefully have no problem with my eternal scepticism, all's well with the world.
 
Originally posted by penance
A capacitor in a circuit can be used for smoothing. One side connected to a volage rail, tother to ground plane. So there is a difference between both sides
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But different to a constantly fluctuating signal in adjoining conductors not connected to the same circuit, n'est-ce pas?
 
Originally posted by tones
Sorry, no offence meant, remark withdrawn. However, you gotta admit there are a lot of gullible people out there who will swallow this stuff, and the (mis)use of pseudo-technobabble assists in this. And people will often buy on price, ("Wow! If it costs that much, it must be good!") And, if they want to hear a difference (especially having forked out so much for it), they often do. I can vouch for this because I fell into this very trap and it took me a while to realise that I was kidding myself. I accept that you don't kid yourself, Gambit, but a lot of folk do - "the king's new clothes syndrome".

I had a feeling that you meant sampling rate by 192, but I wasn't sure. Anyway, as I say, I don't believe, you do, I have no problem with you believing, you hopefully have no problem with my eternal scepticism, all's well with the world.
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Thank you Tones, I guess I read more into your comment than was there :o
I admit there are a few people out there like that, though to me, if a cable cost a lot, it'd have to do a lot to justify the price ;) I certainly wouldn't buy along the lines of "it costs a lot, therefore must be good" - Bose would have to be good for that to be anywhere near true.
Your scepticism is fine by me, all is indeed well.
 


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