Cable directionality & cables

Wow - handbags at dawn girls!

Bunny please - I assure you there are no turkeys chez GrahamN (other than that Berlioz Te Deum CD )

Still not entirely sure what you're aiming to prove/examine here, but you should see the beat as peaks in the envelope of a time domain 'scope display. If it's a repetitive signal a simple triggered scope will do, and just measure the time difference between the two cursors (any half decent scope will do this). If it's a non-repetitive signal, you'd need a sampling scope or similar transient capture ADC-based system, at which point you can analyse to your hearts content. Actually you should be able to do that with your TACT laptop software. Then either make the same measurement in the in the time domain (between neighbouring amplitude maxima), and the frequency is 1/(time difference), or display in the frequency domain. That display will show one peak for each distinct frequency present in your sample - beats/intereference tones will arise at every difference between those frequencies. Those that we recognise as beats will be due to very closely spaced peaks in the spectrum (i.e. less than say 15 Hz apart). E.g. two peaks at 252Hz and 254Hz will give a 2Hz beat. If you're interested in absolute pitch, "A" above middle-C is defined as 440Hz, frequency halves each octave you go down from there, and each semitone is a frequency ratio of 2^(1/12).

 

You're not confusing beating with "difference tones" or whatever they're called are you? - the former being the weird pulsing interference effect you get when two frequencies very close together are superimposed, and the latter being the non-existent notes - generally of a triad - you can sometimes hear when the other notes in the triad are played in particular combinations.

 

Sure - they're the same thing. There's a thing on a ham radio called a beat frequency oscillator (BFO) that basically mixes in a difference tone so you can hear the original transmission properly. And in Psychoacoustics there's the same phenomenon call a beat frequency, sometimes called motorboating.

 

None required, ol' spud, but thanks anyway.

 

wow, what fun!

This thread started talking about mains cables and interference, which I think is different to signal cables, and to be honest, interconnects are probably different to loudspeaker cables.

With a mains cable, you have no audio signal, yes both are AC, however, mains is 50hz, and is then stepped down by a huge inductor in the name of the power transformer.

This alone rolls off a lot of line noise and inteference, then it gets converted to a pulsating dc by the recitifers, smoothed by the capacitors into a hopefully flat DC.

this can then be made REGULAR, by a voltage regulator, which both makes it hopefully totally flat, and negates the effect of voltage drooping ie the dc becoming say 35 volts instead of 40volts by being lost in the resistances of the power supply when lots of current is drawn.

My own listening leads me to some conclusions, however I am not so dogmatic that I will say nothing makes a difference, I will generally now say suck it and see, however I have seen £30 k cables, which really is the subject of scorn.

Especially when companies just bring them out and you think it must be good cos its that expensive.
I get SOOO weary of seeing another pornographic item in a hifi mag, that costs £10k, and the reviewer is wanking and orgasming all over it. It is £10k, and is brill, better than anything before. that is why I am for bllind test, so you don't know the price. I believe in you get what you pay for, but now in our money greed society designer stuff is coming out that you simply pay to have the name and the product is a secondary issue....madness really.

They fail to give good reasons, too for the cost. Sure if it took 20 years of intense scientific R/D and extensive listening, but then, the rational mind would say, where is your evidence...its one thing to spout claims, they need some backup, and for a company to say 'trade secrets ' just makes me think that either they are talking bollox or ought to share REAL breakthroughs in science and discovery for the benefit of womankind.

To offend James, the mana effect is a bit like russ andrews obscene quote saying in a catalogue, rf inteference is reduced by longer cables, so buy as much as you can, put your speakers as far apart, and spend spend spend on RA cables!
To have 9 layers of mana strikes me as the same type of thing, however, if you think it works, fine, I haven't heard so cannot say.

James...why not simply use some silicone type electrical glue on your cables and sockets, you can pull it of easily, and it will 'seal' the connections for stopping the vibrations...cheaper than layers of racks?

quote earlier

Naims credibility in not overcharging for their cables....that's cos they way overcharge for their simple circuits:duck: :ffrc: :ffrc:

electrons in ac don't actually flow, they just vibrate back and forth at the frequency of the mains.

So mains is 50 hz sine wave, and audio is 20-20khz, of alsorts of waves normally.

If the mains becomes dc in the psu, how can directionality in mains cables matter, and indeed affect the dc?

I can hear differences in interconnects, but it defies prices in general, so I really am cynical about expensive cables. I have heard naff pricy stuff and superb cheap ie tandy and maplin stuff which I use.

It really pisses you off tho; when you hear the maker spouting absolute dogmatic claims based on psedoscience and find a cheap thing to be better. Makes you cynical.

I like WM coming informing about his background a role, very illuminating, much more credibility than companies who just package up cheap stuff expensively. why do you think they are so protective and secretive, as if you really knew the truth, the bubble would burst, and you'd realise you paid £30 a meter for a £15 drum of 100m from the maker.

what complicates the issue is that I change...my tastes my hearing, my systems sound....I have no explanation for this, sometimes sounds great, sometimes naff, depends on my mood, health, etc., this also leads to questions like mains quality at certain times, so tis logical that should be investigated, normal thing michalab so no regrets, same with supports.

Some of the stuff that does get marketed as audiophile stuff really is akin to superstitions like putting corks under your bed or similar.

i can't tell the difference between swiching displays off, James, but it could have some bearing on circuit interference so is not COMPLETE tosh. Confusion everywhere you have to really know about the way everything works to come to an informed judgement, and your average guy cannot do that. So he has to go by word of mouth, marketing, gut instinct, testing, etc...

Though caveat emptor, maybe the industry should be regulated to prevent wild claims without backup....hearing is in the ear of the beholder, and is SUBJECTIVE, sensory based, individual,
only a consensus of scientific fact can prove something, so maybe 'great sound quality' ought to be banned.

 

Nice post, Ian.

 

To offend James, the mana effect is a bit like russ andrews obscene quote saying in a catalogue, rf inteference is reduced by longer cables, so buy as much as you can, put your speakers as far apart, and spend spend spend on RA cables!

Why should I be offended? I really, honestly don't mind what others use and think.

To have 9 layers of mana strikes me as the same type of thing, however, if you think it works, fine, I haven't heard so cannot say.

I know it works: I have heard so can say.

 

What's wrong with this picture :



Hint: look at the arrows on the cable and socket labels that say "digital input" and "digital output"

Just a photoshoot mistake I'm sure

Michael.

 

Artistic only Mike I'm afraid

 

Thats is correct, Wooflie

You've been here before


"If you go back to page 4 of this thread, which is reprint below for
quick reference it does gives the impression that you do believe that cables has directionality. My apology if I misunderstond you"

No misunderstanding, your just confusing your self with the posts that followed thats all.
My posts relating to the blind testing do not relate to directionality they relate to *alledged precived differenices* the panel heard when we swapped equipment and power chords, and with no equipment changes, yet a *difference was detected*
Only once has a stated directional differenices are noticeable more so in digital cables.althought we apply the same techinque to all the other cables we produce.
The above picture was taken for looks not accuracy, we decided to do shoot it that way as it looked better nothing else.
I wonder if really your adb in disguise?, your dogma is such I'm fasicated, prehaps a detective agency? would benefit greatly from your services.
Hey just say bollox I won't bite, and you guys can rage at it all afternoon Your ears the bottom line

 

WM,
Nice to know at least there is one cable company who don't just took it for granted that AC cables has a directionality. There is hope.

Next question. Why a person with a science background like you and claim who are serious with R&D do not try to DBT more often?

 

Thanks for your blessing

Here's pitch, holy cow I think he's gunna make, stop right there !!!!! I gotta know right now, will you DBT me for ever
Using DBT, why not more, 2 reasons (for us) On all the non Audio equipment we produce, I've yet to see a DBT panel assembled for a 15 point thermocouple array linked to a control system for a Kiln, or production line assembly welding robot intergration softare package.
Or maybe an HUD diagnostic interface, needs blue curtains to get final approval?
The sound our cables give, isn't like any thing else we've come across (that was intential), the 2 different familes of signal transmission interface we produce, are just that and we wish to keep these lines that way.
Using dbt for anything other than additional information gathering, (in this sector application) for us is not warranted, on furture projects this may change, but I'll leave you with this thought, we set out to produce a cetrtain sound, that we just couldn't find out there on the market place, we've come very close to what we hoped for, this was achieved by material analysis, carefully chosen dialectrics and shielding materials, cable treatments and finialing listening tests, some dbt, mostly between a panel of 4, then if we were happy, then beta testing.
Weather this helps you alay your fears woofie, I'm not really that fussed, however the process has worked for us and we are pretty pleased with the results.
One thing does concern me though ?

"Sweeten some gullible magazines journalists and some costumers will buy it. Most of them are unlikely to challenge the believe and repeat the favourable pseudo improvement."

Are you suggesting we have done this?, prehaps this is a more a cj/lawrie comment, not one I would expect from a man of your morals woofie.
While I cannot comment on any other companies activities, I can 100% state is abosolute horse plops if the accusatuon was directed at us.

 

No.

I am thinking about magazines like What Hifi? My suspicion is 80% of the readers will just built a system based on the latest recommended components and buy it without auditioning the gear. Next they will buy the cables with the most Stars. The so call Annual Rewards are selected by a few internal editors. To my knowledge they are not based on fair comparison like blind listening test. Because of this in my book they lack credibility.

 

I believe that the panel tests for Hi-Fi Choice - they used to run them for about a dozen pairs of speakers at a time - were, if not totally blind, then at least 'partially sighted'.

 

Woofie,
For once we agree well at least with most of your post, where we differ is how/when we listen to equipment we are interested in.
Awards at the end of year are tricky, the reviewers my like a certain style of sound, and although other equipment which is also good (in other areas) may not get such a favourable run. I'm sure, however I feel this happens in lots of mags across the spectrum of subjects, I know it did in the automotive publication sector.
I'll cite an example here, that illistrates your point,
I was returning some equipment to a well known chain of hifi retailers, and carted it up the demo room, where a gentleman was listening to some cyrus gear through some gr 20's, sounded quite fair, he asked all the right questions, his partner was reading what hifi, looking at the specs etc, says to the sales chap, I'll take the M/F stack please, he hadn't even listened to it at that point he took a 308 Int & 308 Cdp.
Mags can have an influenece for sure, but the shrewd guys who know what they want, will not buy unless they have extended home demos. and not just the odd one either
Now back to some of my previous questions, your selection of equipment, where did you double blid test it?, was it a retailer ? I'm sure the foum would like to know where they can pursue this in the high street, how much kit did you abx against?, was it one box at a time?, had you already choosen a cdp, and then took it along and dbt's the amps/ speakers
would you do this every time you wanted to change kit?
Did you do the same for the cables ?, do you actively discourage home listening demos (non dbt)?
Woofie as your asked about my methods, seems it's fair I keep it all in balance here.
I choose my equipment, not on badge or price, but how it sounds (I do like other kit as well as wadia/B/c), or sounds It's good at, and the other I can enhance, mid to long term listening is a must when auditioning potential new equipment for prospective purchase, thats my view, and for me has worked out well, other purchases I've bought on a whim or Wow factor, have had a very limited life span at Chez Wm
One last question, I wonder what the long term happiness factor is with dbt selected equipment, maybe more so than the usually methods, a poll for that might help too. Wm

 

From my understanding you are suqqesting that we could only get to know something very well after listening to it carefully for a long period of time in the comfort of your own home. Absolutely. I certainly agree with you.

What I have been trying to suggest all this time is when comparing your next new toys at home you should double check that with some form of blind listening test. For example with the help of a friend who is not only there to help you to switch between A and B but to try and test yourself whether you have really grasp the components unique sonic charactor. Maybe they are different but not the way that you initially thought.

I seems to have pick on you is because since you are involve with R&D cables I thought you should know better. Human are not a robotic researcher. They have their good and bad days. Human seems to have a tendency to evaluate things by taking clues observed with all senses. Human also seems to evalute things based on your previous experience or assumptions.

 

If you ask a group of people which is better.



This Krell awesome 400W power amplifier.

Or


This small little 50W thingy.

How many people could really honestly claim they have listened without even a tiny little bit of prejudice?

 

Having heard both I'll pass on the pair thanks

 

I'd take the creek and the balance in cash.

Jason