Cable directionality & cables

"I don't know. If the cable connectors, DIN or RCA or whatever, are rattling around in their sockets, wouldn't there be a more secure and consistent contact between pin & socket if the rattling is diminished/abolished?" - Bub

Surely this statement both agrees and argues your own points?

Why would the directionality of cable not make any difference, but a bit of sonic vibration will in some way effect the electical signal?

In fairness I agree with your post entirely, however from a guy using mana it kind of falls on its arse.

Cables are utter bullshit, Wadia is talking bullshit. "we listen to our cables to determin directionality'

Jusus f-ing christ, given enough you could start to believe it.

Cables have directionality because boys like toys. Boys are obsesive so they need better toys than others boys. Other boys realised this and cashed in.

Job done.

 

Tones, also excellent points.

 

Chaps

My view is simple.

If you are dim enough to allow some con merchant to flog you bright coloured cables at high prices then you are a fool and deserve to be fleeced.

If you genuinely think that reversing a cable is going to affect the sound then you are so guillible you deserve to be parted from your cash and good luck to the con merchant who does it.

I can sympathise with victims but not with fools.

Regards

Mick

 

a year or 2 ago russ andrews,in one of his sales brouchers claimed that they'd managed,along with kimber, to measure directionality of cables,being a curious hippy i emailed them for more details and heres the reply

so i emailed kimber,quess what im still awating a reply

 

Hi Gary.

What I am postulating is (and this is a long way off topic) if a socket (DIN or whatever type you like) in the back of, say, a CDP/amplifier/supercap/whatever is physically vibrating (because the box itself is vibrating) then wouldn't this vibration tend to 'rattle' the plug which is inserted into it?

And wouldn't this 'rattling' tend to change the physical point(s) of electrical contact between the socket and the plug with time? And might this not ****-up the sound somewhat? I think that this is primarily how Mana works with solid state equipment.

It's only a pet theory, but it's obviously right ;-)

For the record, I do actually think that good signal interconnect cables do make a slight but definite difference. But that is not the issue here, which is directionality....

BBC2 9pm Genius of Mozart, see you later.

 

That is exactly what a lot of people who claims to be born with golden ears say. Some times when physicians points out that their ears are built no difference then the average populations they claims it is something you have to learn with careful nurturing and experience that others could not acquire. Funny enough they also claim this superhuman ability could not be reliably tested with method considered benchmark in research in virtually every branches of medical science used to study human physiology.

That Peter Walker sounds like he has a lesson to teach us all. Oh well. They don't makes them like they used to. It is all about money and marketing tricks nowadays.

 

Bub.

Surely in terms of electric there is contact or there isn't contact, I fail to see how there can be an inbetween?

Therefore in my esteemed opinion your pet theory holds about as much water as that last metre of very expensive electrics cable or directionality.

 

It seems to me that old conflicts are causing diversion from the original topic.


Yes, cables can affect a change in sound. Is the change an improvement, or is it just a change? Are cables being used as tone controls?... or are cables more/less suitable for purpose than each other?.. why should it cost a lot to get it right?

all the above are other arguements/discussions...


.. but directionality?

I too am a bit taken aback when science is dismissed because it doesnt agree with audiophilia..... (the wrong way round it seems to me...)

Playing devils advocate, perhaps audiophiles supporting wire directionality have more experience of audio equipment than a knowledge of physics? - In the land of the blind, the marketing man and journalist is king?

..... I would draw parallel with a Formula 1 technician changing the direction of a fuel cable because it has directionaility, and that will effect fuel flow! ... or a gardner changing which end of hose pipe he might attach to his garden tap!


Perhaps there is such a thing as directionality of the wire itself, but if there is I have never heard it, and I find the explanations FOR directionality distinctly unconvincing compared the explanations AGAINST.

An interesting topic to bring up Bub.

Personally, Im suprised that companies such as 'Kimber' for example dont exercise more caution in their marketing blurb - surely they are alienating part of their audience?

 

Garyi, tell me that to my face I'm a tolerant man, but thats a little too far. You all entitled to your views.
There is little point me posting a responce, as what ever I post you'll blast it out of the water
I do find the dbt squad amusing though, and with dat19 about to be disposed as king of the naysayers, I await the battle royal, let the band play on

 

Common Wadia! These forums have been boring of late, just trying to liven it up a bit.

Sort of like you saying that naim (for instance) is crap all the time

Although I am interested to hear from you this:

Presumably directionality is detirmened by how it comes out the cable making machine. Why therefore do you need to hear it to determine direction?

Now if you answer 'because it varies' then you'll forgive me for saying that the whole directionality thing has to be nothing more than a persons personal opinion.

Sorry for the harshness earlier, I have done 60 hours work this week and wanted to spout, plus of course I have met you and you looked stronger than me!

 

Ok Garyi,
I do understand the work thang
First I'm not setting in stone, aboslution an all, thats not the case.
We manufacture all our own wire (in the UK), it's not brought in from Tiwain .
It's our own 'Brew' if you like (we research and forumluated it, it's unique as far as we're aware).
There are many therories as to weather the draw wire has compressed grain structure, deformed boundaries, etc. as to weather this has a PROVEN effect on the sonic signature of the said material is a big a can of worms as, Salisbury an alternate universe ?.
All I can say is, we can and do detect differenices in the directionality, hence why we don't just start making them 'as they come' so to speak, our cables are multistranded, and are hand assembled. So if we doubled back the cable, would it not be going against the grain?
You'll say, are but no 2 brews are the same, true 100% consistancy is virtually impossible, too much x instead of y, and the mix is wrong, this could be the reason?, also too much pressure in the dies?, too high a temprature in the smelter?/furnace, impurities, yes all very valid.
I'll give you 2 main differenices we notice on digital cable directionality, out of focus/disjointed sound, very muddled, flip it around and it pops in so to speak, more cohesive.
I'm sure I'll get 30 broadsides for this post
Buy hey, the world is made up of all sorts. T.

 

Mick said:

I'd say that £60/£70 for an interconnect cable is quite fancy and posh, or was that £60-£70 in total to wire up the whole system ?

 

Sid the cables come with the gear, naim don't sell any 'after market' cables, so as such they could be considered excellent value!

 

BBC2 9pm Genius of Mozart.
Thanks for reminding me about that. Beautiful music.


Wadia-mester,
I hope you realise that I am not attacking your products in anyway. I am participating in this discussion purely as entertaining debates with friends. It would be interesting to know when you say we could hear differences in the directionality of cables and not attribute to shielding, how many people are involves in your research? If it was back up by say 10 people then it is noteworthy observation. If it is conducted with DBT listening with the same people then it is of scientific significant worth further measurement. They are 2 very different things.

 

Well I don't think that the pin/socket interface is an interference fit: Naim recommend plugging/unplugging now & again to clean the contacts.

Hmmmm. Burndy2, black SNAICs......not cheap, neither.

Yes the Mozart prog was good, I think it's a series of three?

 

You can train your hearing. When I was a student, I could never hear the murmur of mitral stenosis. Once I was told what to listen for, and with some more experience under my belt, I could.

 

Woofie,
I must admit that I find your fasination with this whole thing intreaging. I know your not knocking them, curiousity is human trait.
If I told you we had 15 development engineers, full spectrum analyasis and custom self constructed test rigs, 2 dedicated labs and a budget of £250K, and an army of DBT er's would that ease your concience?
We use tried and tested methods, whilst combining new ideas and reasearch. we have a staff of 4, and a listen panel of 25+ (real world)
I'm going to say this bit again, we have of 20 gig's of reaserch, into cable manifestations Ok, I could select 8 cables (from the public domain, know to us & not just ours either, all there standard measurable parameters, measure as close as if measuarably possible, yet they do all have a different sonic characteristics. (have they other measureable traits that differenicate this well???, $64K question)
Don't confuse my posting style, and ability
Omiga Audio is subsidurery of a larger digital systems intergration and reasearch company specialising in mil spec and areospace projects, we have more 'relevent & unique test equipment about the place business than you can shake a large stick at, does that mean wow, great amazing . NO what it means is we have the ability to look seriously indepth at products we may have developed than a lot of business in the same field.
We're not science rewriters, we just look at things in a different light, nothing more.
A lot of ideas and practices come from the world of aerospace (as does a fair few other companies)
My own peronal field is areospace engineering & material compositions and stress evaluations for flight testing, mainly under carriage and electro-mechanical hydraulic flight systems (Bsc Eng (hons) Class of 88), the rest of the guys are mainly HUD & flight intergration systems in mil-planes. Automotive calibration & intergration process systems and bespoke software applications.
All of that means what?, I could write anything true, however there is an awful lot of experiance and knowledge here in relation to digital systems and signal transfer & control software.
Woolfie, if you wish to experiance this first hand, then we'd be happy to give you a tour Wm

 

Very reassuring. When you claim that your panels could hear differences not measurable with your equipment available to your facilities are this listening test conducted by DBT?

Tempting offer. From what I read other cable manufacturers (and some hifi company) are not serious in R&D based on real science.
That is until I come across this forum.


Devil,
Absolutely. However, to prove that you could hear these very minute differences you need to tell your examiners the diagnosis without looking at the ultrasound scan before hand which shows you clearly the pathology.


Looking forward the rest of the series.

 

Seems to me some people need to reread the original post and some of the replies.

My post on the reasons for directional cables, is solely to do with geometry of construction. I carfuly ignored any aspect of being able to hear the difference. Oh yes I can hear it but that was not my issue. Oh yes I can also do techono speak too but if old nick can't understand [or doen't wish to] the very basic Noddy version there really is not a lot of point in deep and meaningful explanations. As for being patronising.... well more tongue in cheek really.

Seems a few people need to do a little more research and a little less pontificating.

 

To quote George W's favourite phrase " Who gives a Sh$t"

FWIW, Kimber Select speaker cables sounded dire when I hooked them up. Tried them the other way and they sounded less dire. On reading up LATER, I found that the original orientation was wrong. That's close enough to a blind test for me. If guys want something more anal, might I suggest they need to find a new hobby, plane spotting perhaps.

I have never heard any cable directionality with anything other than the above named products.

I did not know that Naim included cables with their products. Nice idea. It goes a long way to explaining their pricing structure. Those are some f$cking expensive cables