Cables

[lordsummit]

Should Johnny care to search the forum he will find threads like these that show why cables are such a difficult subject.

Perhaps he will read them and realise that cabling is one of those arguments to which there are no absolute answers and that some people believe them to make a difference and others believe to the contrary. He may also understand then that nice as members of both camps are, that over this issue never the twain shall meet.

Have a good read Johnny but honestly I don't believe that anyone can have much left to say on the subject, and I can't be bothered wasting much of my life moderating the subject.

Here you go some reading material:
Argument about cables

A particularly tedious one

 

[greg]

greg do you beleive in cables ?

do you know how they can make a difference ?

As I commented above, I've heard differences in some cases and no difference in other cases, I've had one night and day experience. Note, as Zanash comments, a difference vs improvement are distinct from one another as are, IMO, cost vs improvement.

Do I believe in cables? A Mickey Mouse question to me.

If you mean have I heard differences? Then yes.

And can I explain them at a physical, electromagnetic level? No.

Does the latter cause me to doubt the former? No.

I dont need to be able to explain the principles of nuclear fusion to feel the sunshine on my face.

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

Why do all you audiophiles spend so much money on cables ?

Don't you think you rather over-generalise? How do YOU know that all WE audiophiles spend "so much money"? Anyway, how much is "so much" anyway.

Also, don't you think that "me" and "you lot over there" is a bit antagonistic?

It's only a cable...I can't hear any difference..

Which may have many reasons, including the one that you have a ferverent belief that "all cables sound the same", so you hear what you believe.

I once illustrated this rather nicely to one of the "anti-cable" guys by setting up a blind test, ostensibly to test the differences in cables, but in reality using a known audible stimulus (polarity reversal of one stereo channel, this was known only to me, ll others thought they heard cables). The gentleman first proclaimed that no difference was audible, had indeed a score sheet that was completely random while the other three participants had "perfect" (e.g. twice 5 in 5 correct) and commented that the differences where HUGE (as they should have been). He then became a lot less gentleman like when I explained what I had done.

Can you justify spending possibly hundreds or thousands of pounds on cables ?

Can anyone justify spending hunderts or thousands of pounds on music reproduction or on Holidays somewhere far away which are so stressfull that you need a week of to recover, or annually on smoking or drinking beer and other alcohol, possibly on taking illegal drugs, perhaps on sexual partners for hire, and so on, or as a society in the larger sense can anyone justify spending large percentages of the gross national product on doomsday devices who are so frightening that it boggles the mind to even consider their use?

The spending habits of the average Homo Interludiens Mobiles (I consider Homo Sapiens Sapiens an entierly inapropraite designation of the species) are hardly what you would call rational, no matter what is involved.

If you think that such spending habits need to be corrected, why don't start crusading against the current defense budgets, the drinking of Alcohol and Smoking and so on.

You would be doing a lot of good for a lot of people if you suceeeded while quite frankly the overall potential of improvement in the fate of humankind is miniscule, should you convine the odd audiophile or two to not part witha few hundert pound for a cable when the UK Defense Budget is 25 Billion anually and a seizable portion of it for Weapons of Mass Destruction.

So, kindly take your crusade elsewhere, it is not needed here nor has it got much chance of sucess or of making a real impact

Ciao T

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

Nobody has answered the questions I asked :

how can they make a difference ?

One could go into lengthy discussion of physics, which would be largely futile, as we (as humankind) don't really understand much about it. There was a time when it was believed that there was such a thing as "Atoms" and them being indivisible (a contention most drastically disproved since 06/08/1945) when we now know that Atoms in fact do not exist, except as an assembly of smaller particles (which at some time where believed to be Positrons, Neutrons and Electrons which in fact do not exist either [having been found to be actually an assembly of smaller particles {insert recursive algorythm here}]).

I have already posted another topic on the room, and many of you agree that the room will distort the sound far more than cables.

In any case, how can you really hear what the cable is or isn't doing unless the room for example is right ?

I have answered you in that thread and pointed out that the Ear is not a very linear transducer in any sense of the word, being subject to an averaged frequency response no better than +/-15db between 60Hz & 8KHz and equally subject to over 30 Percent Distortion at 92db SPL (200Hz).

How can you really hear what anything is with ears like that? The fact remains that you can!

Ciao T

 

[alexs2]

This post and the way it's being directed do seem somewhat reminiscent of trolling,but I'm sure that's not the case really.

 

[Tenson]

and I don't suppose Johnny could be someone with an axe to grind logging on as another user :rds2:

 

[alexs2]

and I don't suppose Johnny could be someone with an axe to grind logging on as another user :rds2:

Whatever it is,he seems to have lost interest and logged off,despite looking at the threads for a considerable time.

 

[greg]

Whatever it is,he seems to have lost interest and logged off,despite looking at the threads for a considerable time.

I can only assume he is pondering the previous threads in great detail and feeling delighted by their informative and jovial nature.

 

[alexs2]

I can only assume he is pondering the previous threads in great detail and feeling delighted by their informative and jovial nature.

One would certainly hope so,as the wealth of views and opinions therein should be enough to keep him going for a bit....even if it does always come back to the "yes they do improve things",and "no they dont" arguments....which I suspect is what was trying to be started....again.

 

[zanash]

quote "I have already posted another topic on the room, and many of you agree that the room will distort the sound far more than cables.

In any case, how can you really hear what the cable is or isn't doing unless the room for example is right ?"

This is the typical multiply choice type question were both statments are true but not for the same reasons.

Let me explain ...if you have a room into which you place a hifi to which you listen, then you swap a component say a source. You will assuming that the new unit is of significantly higher quality, be rewarded with better sound. Now this better sound is related to the room accoustics but is not controlled by them. So the changes will still be apparent if you alter the room accoustics and rerun the test again. As likely as not you will hear something slightly different as the accoustics have been altered, but you will still be able to hear the differences between sources. As to cables in the same test, as long as the cables are sufficently different from one another you will hear the changes they make. If you alter the room accoustic and then re do the cable test you will still hear the difference the cables make.

Now altering the room parameters will make a huge difference to the percived sound, but the small changes made by cables that last 5-10% [icing on the cake] will still be audilbe, and not swamped by other changes as you suppose in the quote above.

 

[Johnny]

quote "I have already posted another topic on the room, and many of you agree that the room will distort the sound far more than cables.

In any case, how can you really hear what the cable is or isn't doing unless the room for example is right ?"

This is the typical multiply choice type question were both statments are true but not for the same reasons.

Let me explain ...if you have a room into which you place a hifi to which you listen, then you swap a component say a source. You will assuming that the new unit is of significantly higher quality, be rewarded with better sound. Now this better sound is related to the room accoustics but is not controlled by them. So the changes will still be apparent if you alter the room accoustics and rerun the test again. As likely as not you will hear something slightly different as the accoustics have been altered, but you will still be able to hear the differences between sources. As to cables in the same test, as long as the cables are sufficently different from one another you will hear the changes they make. If you alter the room accoustic and then re do the cable test you will still hear the difference the cables make.

Now altering the room parameters will make a huge difference to the percived sound, but the small changes made by cables that last 5-10% [icing on the cake] will still be audilbe, and not swamped by other changes as you suppose in the quote above.

The bottom line is that you will not be able to hear the majority of the difference in quality, unless you correct the room.

And yes, the room can swamp the changes in cable.

(I assume you haven't even heard what a correctly designed room can do)

 

[alexs2]

Still havent answered the previous questions about the gear you're using to base this on,plus which of the Room EQ systems you've used.....

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

The bottom line is that you will not be able to hear the majority of the difference in quality, unless you correct the room.

First, this statement is demonstrably false (various significant and small differences in quality can be heard in the absence of DSP Corrected Rooms, anechonic torture chambers et al) and secondly, it uses a rather tenous logic. To paraphraseDavid Guaspari:

"To conclude the audibility OF ANYTHING from the absence or presence of room acoustics effects is like asking whether the fatness of a pig is more or less green than the designated hitter rule."

And yes, the room can swamp the changes in cable.

In what sense can "the room swamp changes in cable"? Please enlarge and please illustrate, if you may.

(I assume you haven't even heard what a correctly designed room can do)

Well, one may AssUMe, but I prefer if you left Me out of your assumptions.

Ciao T

 

[zanash]

Thats true no denying it, but you miss the piont of my post totally. Regardless of the room you will hear changes made by cables [assuming there is sufficient difference to hear] ....I've been there done it, read the book eaten the pie etc. I reffer you again to the cable testing article..... even those people who sat close to the wall and next to one of the quad 988, the differences were obvious. This poor seating position outweighed any conventional room treatment in its effect on the percived sound....I know as it was myself that sat their. Now I'll argue long and hard about cables and room accoustics but one does not control the other, but I agree each will be effected by the other. As previously stated, the effect a room will have will be to alter the responce of a system not its resolution.

 

[alexs2]

Thats true no denying it, but you miss the piont of my post totally.

As previously stated, the effect a room will have will be to alter the responce of a system not its resolution.

One begins to think,Zanash,that the various points are being missed wilfully.

 

[Johnny]

take your hi fi out into your back garden one summers afternoon.

no standing waves occur out in the open.

you will surely be surprised.

its rather ambiguous what is meant by '' resolution'' and response.

response of what ?

 

[zanash]

Response is what you hear from the speaker/room interface.
Resolution is the ability of a system to reveal the macro and micro detail and dynamics in the music signal. Or its ability to portray the original performance.

Yep been there......shock horror you can still hear the changes made by cables and other gear changes. Amazingly headphones are non room dependant, you can clearly hear equipment changes with these too. Actually in nearly 37 years audio/HiFi experience, I've done and heard most things, I've even confused the same issues that your currently doing....but not so publicly. So please take a moment or two to think about what your implying.....I don't need to spell it out do I ?
Will you then take a moment answer the following please.

Why have you not answered other peoples questions ?
What gear are you using ?
What Room correction techniques are you empolying ?
What sort of room are you listening in to reach these strange conclusions?

 

[greg]

The bottom line is that you will not be able to hear the majority of the difference in quality, unless you correct the room.

And yes, the room can swamp the changes in cable.

So one may as well not bother worrying about one's CD player or turntable then as the possible improvements will go equally unoticed?

 

[wadia-miester]

Johnny & Andy Townshend have a lot in common I feel

 

[greg]

I assume you haven't even heard what a correctly designed room can do

Come clean - you're selling correctly designed rooms arent you? Do you have a catalog or website?

I expect delivery would be a problem though