Class 66 trains - Modern day antiques?

[Legzr1]

Virgin getting a lot of complaints again I see.
Probably the reason they've just lost the X-Country franchise - they're spitting blood tobviously they're having customer service,capacity and punctuality problems but they have invested an absolute fortune in rolling stock + infrastructure.
And for what?

I pity the next company to take over this franchise - a poisoned chalice methinks.

For the record I have a few good mates who could be out of work in the very near future directly as a result of this.
Perhaps this is worth bearing in mind the next time you think about moaning about a loose bit of carpet / bins not emptied for the last 20 mins etc etc.

(No,I don't work for virgin).

 

[amazingtrade]

I am not sure which bank own the Voyagers but the Pendalinos are owned by Angel Trains. All trains are owned by leasing companies (or freight companies such as EWS) for the reason that franchises don't last.

So when VT loose their XC franchise the new franchise will just continue their leese.

 

[Legzr1]

I am not sure which bank own the Voyagers but the Pendalinos are owned by Angel Trains. All trains are owned by leasing companies (or freight companies such as EWS) for the reason that franchises don't last.

So when VT loose their XC franchise the new franchise will just continue their leese.

I didn't actually say Virgin owned the rolling stock
EWS has a subsiduary for leasing - Axiom - which is mainly for charter services as far as passenger stock is concerned (although they did bid for the ECML franchise - quite where the £XXX Billions required was coming from was a mystery.Some say this was more of a marketing ploy to get them 'on the map')

It's not quite as simple as re-newing the lease with the next company.
For simplicity lets take something small - company branding.
Whilst not actually an investment as such it is still a six figure sum down the drain.

Word on the grapevine indicates First may be the 'prefered bidder' for the new franchise - God help us

 

[amazingtrade]

Yeah that will be a disaster, I am not impressed with First at all. I would be surprised if they ran XC better than Virgin/Stagecoach.

 

[domfjbrown]

For the record I have a few good mates who could be out of work in the very near future directly as a result of this.

Sorry to hear about that, but...

Perhaps this is worth bearing in mind the next time you think about moaning about a loose bit of carpet / bins not emptied for the last 20 mins etc etc.

When I've paid for a BOOKED seat I can't even get to because the train is so dangerously overcrowded people are even rammed hard against the external doors (I have photos), and when two of my (all disabled) party can't stand for long due to having shunts as result of brain tumour operations (the shunts cause BIG balance problems), I'm afraid I *will* moan. After all, they assumed they'd be able to use the seats they booked and paid for. Seeing a mate I care about wobbling about and looking in obvious distress because they CAN'T stand is a little bit more than an overflowing bin.

I like the fact bloody sheep and pigs have more rights than humans when it comes to rail transportation.

At least First's HST fleet has enough toilets, luggage space and, god forbid, standing room, should it come to it. Voyagers are like Apple computers - all style and no substance. And for the record, I use First to get from Exeter to Reading/London, and they make me late far less than Virgin, and their booking system works pretty much all the time. On a Voyager, I'm lucky if one journey in two has the reservation switched on, let alone showing the correct data.

That said, the thought of First having the XC contract fills me with dread. XC's been a disaster ever since Beeching then Thatcher got their poisoned mitts on it.

 

[Legzr1]

Sorry to hear about that, but...



When I've paid for a BOOKED seat I can't even get to because the train is so dangerously overcrowded people are even rammed hard against the external doors (I have photos), and when two of my (all disabled) party can't stand for long due to having shunts as result of brain tumour operations (the shunts cause BIG balance problems), I'm afraid I *will* moan. After all, they assumed they'd be able to use the seats they booked and paid for. Seeing a mate I care about wobbling about and looking in obvious distress because they CAN'T stand is a little bit more than an overflowing bin.

I like the fact bloody sheep and pigs have more rights than humans when it comes to rail transportation.

At least First's HST fleet has enough toilets, luggage space and, god forbid, standing room, should it come to it. Voyagers are like Apple computers - all style and no substance. And for the record, I use First to get from Exeter to Reading/London, and they make me late far less than Virgin, and their booking system works pretty much all the time. On a Voyager, I'm lucky if one journey in two has the reservation switched on, let alone showing the correct data.

That said, the thought of First having the XC contract fills me with dread. XC's been a disaster ever since Beeching then Thatcher got their poisoned mitts on it.

Well done,you didn't mention the bins and carpets.
Thats what I love about these internet 'discussions' - the point of arguments seems to drift to suit.
I understand your frustrations re:cramped carriages and dodgy booking systems - I agree,it's about time these issues were sorted.
One thing though - you say First offer a better service with the HST sets,yet you use Virgin - why is that?
Surely it's better to stick to the prefered company?

As a general rule it would be extremely simple for all trains to have enough capacity for all eventualities - just double up the number of seats/toilets/sets/loco's etc.
The problem?
No one is prepared to pay for it.
Human nature I suppose - everyone wants first class return travel for £20 but it's not going to happen i'm afraid.
Pity.

I like your quip about pigs and sheep,although you forget one thing.
'They' don't have a choice where they travel to,how they get there and when they depart and arrive.

 

[amazingtrade]

I read on railchat that that Virgin have increased their XC services within last few years so there is actually more seats than they ever where the problem is passanger numbers are increasing faster than seats.

If Virgin still ran MK3s they would still be overcrowded becuase there would be less of them.

 

[domfjbrown]

Well done,you didn't mention the bins and carpets.

I've never had a problem with carpets or bins on First or Virgin. South West Trains on the other hand... ...well, EVERYTHING'S bad about their "service".

I understand your frustrations re:cramped carriages and dodgy booking systems - I agree,it's about time these issues were sorted.

Damn straight - the electronic systems are supposed to be foolproof. How come tickets in seatbacks on First work better??

One thing though - you say First offer a better service with the HST sets,yet you use Virgin - why is that?
Surely it's better to stick to the prefered company?

Do First run from Exeter to Birmingham? That's a new one on me. I don't see them running to Crewkerne either. Oh, and they don't do a Liverpool service either. Maybe I'm missing something here?

I like your quip about pigs and sheep,although you forget one thing. 'They' don't have a choice where they travel to,how they get there and when they depart and arrive.

Some of us don't have a choice if we want any quality of life either. Some of us can't drive cars, nor ever will be able to, or for that matter, have access to someone that does. Some of us can't read bus numbers, and have to rely on trains due to the fact that you can hear an announcement telling you which platform it's on, then find the platform number, since it's not running towards you at ~30 mph so you might have a chance of reading the damn thing, unlike a bus number.

No, pigs and sheep don't have a choice, but maybe it's high time humans had as many rights. If Japan has a rail network that works properly (no seat, no travel) maybe the uK should wise up. Oh yeah, we can't - back to Thatcher and Beeching again.

I might be an idle winger about some things, but when trains are pretty much the only way I can get about unless I choose to sit on my ass in my house in my own town all year round, I think a bit of moaning about a service that wouldn't take much to improve is fair.

If Virgin still ran MK3s they would still be overcrowded becuase there would be less of them.

That's because the IC125s Virgin used were clapped out and badly maintained compared to the First ones - whenever I used to use those en route to Liverpool (changing at Birmingham onto clapped out Mk2 or worse) they were filthy, wobbly, and no attempt had been made to upgrade them from the original seats and interiors. Not pleasant. As a consequence, they kept breaking down.

 

[amazingtrade]

Yep and Virgin still use them crappy MK2s if they run out of Voyagers, its the closest thing I have been on to a rollercoaster, the one I went on had the original 1971 seats as well.

The Voyagers are actually officialy time tables to run a lot more than old ones do as well. The Manchester to London Euston service has doubled in frequency since they introduced Pendalinos.

PS I went on the Metrolink today, now that makes the MK2's seem comfortable!

 

[Legzr1]

I've never had a problem with carpets or bins on First or Virgin. South West Trains on the other hand... ...well, EVERYTHING'S bad about their "service".



Damn straight - the electronic systems are supposed to be foolproof. How come tickets in seatbacks on First work better??



Do First run from Exeter to Birmingham? That's a new one on me. I don't see them running to Crewkerne either. Oh, and they don't do a Liverpool service either. Maybe I'm missing something here?



Some of us don't have a choice if we want any quality of life either. Some of us can't drive cars, nor ever will be able to, or for that matter, have access to someone that does. Some of us can't read bus numbers, and have to rely on trains due to the fact that you can hear an announcement telling you which platform it's on, then find the platform number, since it's not running towards you at ~30 mph so you might have a chance of reading the damn thing, unlike a bus number.

No, pigs and sheep don't have a choice, but maybe it's high time humans had as many rights. If Japan has a rail network that works properly (no seat, no travel) maybe the uK should wise up. Oh yeah, we can't - back to Thatcher and Beeching again.

I might be an idle winger about some things, but when trains are pretty much the only way I can get about unless I choose to sit on my ass in my house in my own town all year round, I think a bit of moaning about a service that wouldn't take much to improve is fair.



That's because the IC125s Virgin used were clapped out and badly maintained compared to the First ones - whenever I used to use those en route to Liverpool (changing at Birmingham onto clapped out Mk2 or worse) they were filthy, wobbly, and no attempt had been made to upgrade them from the original seats and interiors. Not pleasant. As a consequence, they kept breaking down.

All fair points but you seem to be confusing one or two.
I understand the disabled angle - I am no authority on this so will not comment for fear of coming across as a total fool.

However, you make a lot of statements as though they are final.
Yes, Japan has a better rail service - you almost answered the question - it's all down to comitment, government policy and finance.
As I mentioned earlier - no one in this country is prepared to put in the multi-billions required.
There are also a lot of cultural differences that need taking into account.

I'm not from your neck of the woods but are you telling me your only choice of rail travel is down to one company?
I find that very surprising!

This may seem a trivial point but you state things like 'trains are pretty much the only way to get around' I have to comment.
You don't drive - why not take lessons? Even if it's only to reach a station where the on-board services are of a higher service.
Surely there are bus operators competing with the train services? Maybe a tad slower that the train but, still, it's another option.

As ever, whinge to your hearts content - I have no problem with that. Your money - your sub-standard service but it might be an idea to aim it at those that can change things.

To get back to my original point - Virgin losing the XC contract may seem pleasing at first (pun not intended) but, on a personal level it will devastate the lives of a few friends.
I'm trying to put things into context - this isn't a personal attack

 

[amazingtrade]

Some people cannot drive for medical reasons though

And anyway driving is not solving the problem its only adding to it long term.

 

[Legzr1]

Some people cannot drive for medical reasons though

And anyway driving is not solving the problem its only adding to it long term.

I agree - I was only giving options.

Although,saying that it's quite difficult setting up a set of points and signalling to every home .

 

[lhatkins]

Last time I checked, they wouldn't give driving Licences to blind people, hey but I could ring up the DVLA and check that just in case you know something I don't.

Our train journey at the weekend was a joke, standing all the way from Exeter to Birmingham is not much fun, all the coaches including the vestivals where packed. The conductor stopped the train at Taunton and announced that if no one got off the train to relieve the overcrowding the train wasn't going to leave, he was also stopping people getting on.

Tell m how does a service get so bad? Surely this isn't right? I was told the reason was partly due to them having a 4 car train instead of the normal 5 car, so someone f**ked up.

On the way home is was much of the same, with a train being cancelled forcing a lot more people to take the train we where on, and standing everywhere, thankfully some generous people gave their seat up for my wife (who is physically disabled), but we did have seat reservation for exactly that reason.

Its not just Vermin, I've had this trouble on First and RageCoach too.

What makes me laugh is, the governments answer to this, put up the price and reduce the service, ya that'll work. Good to see Britin doing their bit to reduce car usage, bag of arse!

 

[Legzr1]

Last time I checked, they wouldn't give driving Licences to blind people, hey but I could ring up the DVLA and check that just in case you know something I don't.

Stop with the pedantics.
I said earlier that this was one of the options.

At the sake of repeating myself again nothing will change until the railways are given the time and money to undo all the stagnation.
Comitment from those that can make a change would help rather than what normally happens - get a 7 year franchise and milk it for all it's worth.

For your information,the governments idea was not to 'put up prices and reduce the service' - the blame for that lies with the T.O.C's.
While trying to get railtrack to stay on budget without them lining the shareholders pockets they also had the SRA with a somewhat 'political' C.E with a number of axes to grind.

Let's not forget the odd derailment and loss of life btw.

If you have the answers there are many people waiting to hear from you.

Please don't tell me you prefer the railways as they were for 20 years from the late 70's until the late 90's.
The blame for that?
Well,she's already been named.

 

[amazingtrade]

A few years back I would always think twice about using the railways. They have improved quite dramaticaly in recent years, there is more services now and ususaly they are faster and more comfortable.

Yes prices have gone up but somebody needs to pay for the new rolling stock.

Things have been improved but I think there is a still a lot of work to do.

 

[domfjbrown]

All fair points but you seem to be confusing one or two. I understand the disabled angle - I am no authority on this so will not comment for fear of coming across as a total fool.

You don't drive - why not take lessons?

I'd have thought the comment about not being able to read bus numbers and audible announcements'd have been the giveaway Just joshing - all of us disabled people in the party are blind/partially sighted. (Don't worry - this isn't meant as a personal attack retort dude )

Of course, the "why not take lessons" thing could apply to all the able bodied bods on the train, but then again some of them like me might have environmental concerns. At least an overcrowded train is an efficient train

I'm not from your neck of the woods but are you telling me your only choice of rail travel is down to one company?
I find that very surprising!

As I say, from Exeter, there's either First/Virgin to Reading/London Paddington, or South West Trains to London Waterloo. You're stuck with Virgin or Central from Birmingham to Liverpool. None of the companies are infallible - don't get me wrong!

As ever, whinge to your hearts content - I have no problem with that. Your money - your sub-standard service but it might be an idea to aim it at those that can change things.

Urm, like who? They're all the same now aren't they, the shams we call political parties? I've never, nor will ever, vote Labour by the way. I'd vote Conservative over Labour - and I *never* thought I'd say that.

To get back to my original point - Virgin losing the XC contract may seem pleasing at first (pun not intended) but, on a personal level it will devastate the lives of a few friends.

I'm not gloating about Virgin losing the franchise; they're better than the old BR XC by lightyears, but I do feel their organisation could be better. As Lhatkins says, arse/elbow syndrome and the 4/5 car sets springs to mind.

 

[Legzr1]

Urm, like who? They're all the same now aren't they, the shams we call political parties? I've never, nor will ever, vote Labour by the way. I'd vote Conservative over Labour - and I *never* thought I'd say that.

Oh no - i've been chatting to a sandal wearing Lib-Dem.
Lord,forgive me for I....


Serioulsy though,that sort of comment does not fill me with hope for the (our?) future.
Apathy...
Even if you do vote Tory (shudder) at least you're actually voting.

(And I never though I would say that !!).

 

[lhatkins]

I used to travel from Southhampton to Exeter twice a week from 1987 to 1993 and in that time I NEVER had a problem getting a seat, I NEVER had to stand. Yes the trains where dirty, slow and sometimes cancelled. If I try to travel the same way now its always PACKED I always have to stand, so you tell me where the improvements have happened? Ya we got nice new trains, but the old call 47's had 11 or so coaches, now we get 4, go figure.

Railtrack should never have been privetised, a company mainaining track for profit, isn't exactly motivated by safety, hopefully now things will improve.

Yep I agree we have to pay for it, that's fine with me as long as we see something back from our investment, like a service where I can actually park my arse!

Which reminds me of a joke I saw doing the rounds

The following is an exchange of correspondence between a customer and Irish Rail:

Gentlemen,
I have been riding trains daily for the last two years, and the service on your line seems to be getting worse every day. I am tired of standing in the aisle all the time on a 14-mile trip. I think the transportation system is worse than that enjoyed by people 2,000 years ago.
Yours truly,
Patrick Finnegan
---------------------------
Dear Mr. Finnegan,
We received your letter with reference to the shortcomings of our service and believe you are somewhat confused in your history. The only mode of transportation 2,000 years ago was by foot.
Sincerely,
Iarnrod Eireann.
---------------------------
Gentlemen,
I am in receipt of your letter, and I think you are the ones who are confused in your history. If you will refer to the Bible, Book of David, 9th Chapter, you will find that Balaam rode to town on his ass. That, gentlemen, is something I have not been able to do on your train in the last two years!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Dom, I don't you know what your saying, Tory, of all the silly things you've said, that comes quite high, they are the reason the railway is in the state it is, amungst other things! They Sold us out !

 

[Legzr1]

As has already been said,passenger numbers,network wide are up massively on those from just 15 years back.

Why run trains without the seating capacity to cope?
Who knows?
For an answer my first port of call would probably be to the company operating the sevice.

As an aside,if you book in advance I see no reason for you to be without a seat.
If you turn up on the day then you have to accept there may not be a seat for you.
Preferable to the Japanaese system stated earlier - no seat = no ride.
Granted this isn't such a big deal if the next train is only minutes away.

 

[MO!]

I read on railchat......

Railchat??? :ffrc: :ffrc: :ffrc: