gt85 - not as bad as its made out, better than nothing. finish line dry lube - leaves waxy residue, reputedly good for the summer (I hate it, it doesnt seem to do much at all and am looking for a better summer lube) neither is good enough for wet weather. You need a thick viscous winter lube. Rohloff is superb, but really expensive and a tiny little bottle. Finesse also do a viscous lube that is suitable for wet weather, only 3.99 a can, Ive been well impressed with it. Dom, you need to put a lube on after you degrease your chainset. A degreaser acts a bit like mega-washing-up-liquid, and basically takes all the lubricant (and greasy crap) off. It needs washing off before you apply lubricant. Id reccomend a chain cleaning device, which you fill with hot soapy water, and then apply degreaser, and then some more clean water, and then dry it, and then lube. This is the type of device. [URL]http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wiggle.co.uk/images/finish%2520line%2520chain%2520cleaner%252005.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx%3FW%3D0%26Manufacturer%3DSRAM%26UberCatName%3D%26Cat%3Dcycle%26CategoryName%3D%26ProdID%3D5360015444%26UberCat%3D0&h=350&w=234&sz=29&tbnid=-2IqFJPPXDAJ:&tbnh=116&tbnw=77&hl=en&start=4&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dchain%2Bcleaner%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG[/URL]