DBT Report

[kermit]

Hi everyone,
Can someone here clear up something that keeps sticking in my mind ?
I know I ,m probably wrong here again and this isn,t something I feel so strongly about that I amgoing to start trawling the web for prooof or examples .
But......
I,m still under the impression that the original DB challenge , was for someone to step up and prove that they can tell the difference between two amps , not cables , nor anything else .
Am I wrong ?
It, s just that , if I,m right doesn,t it make all of these debates a farce?
Cos , lets face it WE ALL reckon we can tell the difference between amps don,t we , but it ,s my understanding that this challenge has never been met and the money is still up for grabs .
If I,m wrong and , then I,ll stand corrected , but if I,m right
surely we can quit banging on about about differences in cables and just admit that we,re all a little dilusional and probably a bit sad.
ps , I,m more than happy to apologise if I,m wrong .....again

 

[dat19]

I have the solution...

No amount of evidence - gathered by Lipshitz/Toole/Clark/etc etc is going to convince Merlin what he can and cannot hear.

The only way forward is to test Merlin's ability in a properly conducted double blind test. Then we will all have the evidence of what he is capable of hearing (and imagining).

 

[sideshowbob]

admit that we,re all a little dilusional and probably a bit sad

Kermit, I'm delusional and happy...

-- Ian

 

[wadia-miester]

Boy you boys been having fun haven't you.
Lawrie, a few cdp's does exsit that can do what you ask and was cheaper than list you mention by about 50%, for musicality really a well tempered please
Pete, keep up the good work, your giving us all a good time here, in the event you open your mind PM me and we'll arrange a listening session.

 

[notaclue]

Well, well, well... Another DBT/cable saga.

If someone wants to undergo a blind test, I suggest contacting Stewart Pinkerton (see Google UK hi-fi groups). He did (and presumably still does) offer a tidy £1,000 for anyone who could identify two cables in a DBT (which otherwise measure the same etc.). That would then be enough to buy a ticket to the US and claim the $4,000 or so available there.

So? What's stopping ya?

 

[7_V]

Human physiology throws up a number of examples where differences are not always consciously realizable.

For example, most of us are unaware of the rate of our heart-beats, except under exceptional circumstances - such as after running for a bus. On the other hand, a trained Yogi is far more aware of minor variations.

I wonder whether listening can affect us sub-consciously. In other words, whether changes take place below our threshold of awareness which can nonetheless influence how we feel about the sound of a system over the longer term.

Just a thought.

 

[The Devil]

The differences are mainly imaginary. They are so small as to be comparable to the Naimies devout beliefs in undoing the lock-ring thingies on their interconnects, switching displays on & off, fairies at the bottom of the garden, muting the 'record' bank of switches, burning-in cables, CD players and preamps for more than a couple of days, directionality, cable dressing...

 

[michaelab]

Originally posted by greg
Dont forget you are still using *special cables* yourself, what does that tell you?

Yes, but I'm under no illusions about what they're contributing the sound of my system. The total value I could get s/h for the cables in my system is probably about £150 tops and replacing them with something that is well constructed and looks OK would cost at least £50 (including all the connectors etc) and TBH I just can't be arsed to realise the massive equity of £100 trapped up in my *special* cables

Michael.

 

[merlin]

Re: I have the solution...

Originally posted by dat19
The only way forward is to test Merlin's ability in a properly conducted double blind test. Then we will all have the evidence of what he is capable of hearing (and imagining).

So? What's stopping ya?

Datty Boy,

please take the time to read this thread throughout. It is my contention that the DBT/ABX process is fatally flawed for a number of reasons that were highlighted earlier. There is sufficient evidence available to suggest that this is the case, it is simply a question of the "spin" that you choose to put on reports.

So what is stopping me apart from that?

Well, I have a life to be getting on with for a start.

 

[PeteH]

Re: Re: I have the solution...

Originally posted by merlin
It is my contention that the DBT/ABX process is fatally flawed for a number of reasons that were highlighted earlier.

As far as I could tell your contention was more that we didn't have enough DBT results to hand to be able to draw meaningful conclusions, which obviously isn't quite the same. There was Harley's footnote about some "6/7" result under unspecified conditions, weighed against a bunch of papers in the JAES which apparently claim null results - although we can't actually scrutinise those either as they're not in the public domain.

 

[zanash]

You have to remember the devil likes to listen off axis .......you are never going to be able to detect even large difference from this position. Or so he was at pains to tell me awhile ago.

 

[sideshowbob]

Completely disagree. I like to listen off-axis, and differences are very apparent. Differences that muck about with imaging are irrelevant to me anyway.

-- Ian

 

[kermit]

Kermit, I'm delusional and happy...

Ian ,
That,s good to hear , I must admit that I,m delusional and happy as well. And thank you for your discreet spelling correction .


Can anyone remember if there was an original (and more importantly not succesfully met) challenge to tell the difference between amps ?
Or am I just blowing out of my A*** .
Again

 

[Lawrie]

Originally posted by wadia-miester
Lawrie, a few cdp's does exsit that can do what you ask and was cheaper than list you mention by about 50%, for musicality really a well tempered please

Ah WM,

I thought my comment would capture your attention. So would you care to elaborate on what these CDPs might be and I'd be delighted to put them to the test (using LBT, of course ) as to date, I have been underwhelmed by the performance of many of them including many so called upsampling wonders although there are a few out there that I have not yet sampled.

Please note that none of the analogue components that I mentioned were bought at dealer retail prices - just for your information. I await your suggestions sir.




Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

[The Devil]

I can usually manage to haul my slumped carcass into the upright, uptight 'alert audiophile' position if I'm listening for a difference. Mostly though, it's just not worth the effort.

 

[dat19]

Re: Re: I have the solution...

Originally posted by merlin
Datty Boy,

please take the time to read this thread throughout. It is my contention that the DBT/ABX process is fatally flawed for a number of reasons that were highlighted earlier. There is sufficient evidence available to suggest that this is the case, it is simply a question of the "spin" that you choose to put on reports.

Let's revew.

You start this thread by mis-representing the work of Sean Olive and Floyd Toole in a way that you can stratify groups of listeners as a way of shoe-horning yourself into the group with better hearing (than those of us who claim no differences between cables). Oh, and the evidence that Olive/Toole provided to you was collected using proper DBT procedures.

After giving some credence to properly conducted tests, you then start back-peddling, and try to find evidence that all these tests are flawed. And your two articles come from Stereophile (presumably, conflict of interest is lost on you.)

One of these articles tries to build it's case on "type 2" statistical errors - which are known to everyone who has ever done a statistics course by the way!!! Stereophile gloss over the point that the probabiliity of making "type 2" error can be made arbitrarily small by increasing the number of tests. However, Stereophile have for years been claiming the probabilty of correct detection is high ("differences are readily detectable") therefore the probability of making a type 2 error must be small even in small numbers of trails. They cannot have it both ways:

either the detection probaility is high and therefore DBT works.

Or the detection probabilty is low and therefore the differences are not worth the money!

Your opening gambit was based on the work of Toole. However, now you are reduced to mocking his name along with Lipshitz - which is something I would expect from a child.

As for there being "sufficient evidence" that DBT is flawed, well, you've been extra-ordinary selective in the information you've provided. If you'd looked at more of Floyd Toole's work, you would have found at least a dozen papers which are based on DBT's and have provided genuine repeatable results, and if you'd followed the references in those papers, you would have found hundreds of experiments using thousands of subjects all conducted using DBT.

If there is any "spin" on DBT it has come from Stereophile.

As for you not participating in a test, then I can only presume that your hearing ability is of the fleeting variety that only works when you can see what the result should be.

"Datty Boy" == "Batty Boy" == "Homosexual"

If you think implying that I'm gay is an insult, in this day and age, I suggest you need therapy. Or are you going to claim that that was not your intention as usual...

 

[merlin]

To be honest, I lost interest after Chris so succinctly clarified just what these tests actually mean to the likes of me and many other music lovers.

But do point me to the "evidence" colated and viewable on line - i can then assess it's value to me.

Oh and the name tag was I believe originally used by WM and I suspect that if you read that connection into it, you have some serious issues you might want to address

 

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by Lawrie
Ah WM,

I thought my comment would capture your attention. So would you care to elaborate on what these CDPs might be and I'd be delighted to put them to the test (using LBT, of course ) as to date, I have been underwhelmed by the performance of many of them including many so called upsampling wonders although there are a few out there that I have not yet sampled.

Please note that none of the analogue components that I mentioned were bought at dealer retail prices - just for your information. I await your suggestions sir.




Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

I too lawrie have been underwhelmed, by anaolgue only 2 decks have come close to capturing the true music, although good The OrbeSE ( without question is one of the better ones) just isn't one of them, thought saying that we did actually get one to groove (albeit minorly) at Heathrow. (with the aid of Steve from Mitchele and Graham form Trichord)
If you wanted to experiance such a player, a demonstration is possible if your in the UK
Prices dealer retail prices? you never
so your spec @ full retail would be? £5K with Grahams psu? or am I wildly out.
Besides, I'm sure we'll never agree on this, the offer is open if your in the UK. Wm

 

[Lawrie]

Originally posted by wadia-miester
I too lawrie have been underwhelmed, by anaolgue only 2 decks have come close to capturing the true music, although good The OrbeSE ( without question is one of the better ones) just isn't one of them, thought saying that we did actually get one to groove (albeit minorly) at Heathrow. (with the aid of Steve from Mitchele and Graham form Trichord)
If you wanted to experiance such a player, a demonstration is possible if your in the UK
Prices dealer retail prices? you never
so your spec @ full retail would be? £5K with Grahams psu? or am I wildly out.
Besides, I'm sure we'll never agree on this, the offer is open if your in the UK. Wm

Oh WM,

Come on old chap! Don't tell me you are now harbouring ambitions to enter politics as well as we all know that politicians never give a straight answer. You commented that there were several CDPs available for around 50% of what I paid for my analogue rig. As I would like a new CDP, I asked for suggestions of CDPs that could do or exceed what the Mitchell deck does for half the price of the whole rig (as you so clearly suggested) and all I got from you is a defensive response with no mention of the said CDPs. Btw, let's not get into the definition of "groove" as we all interprete what we hear from various hifi components in different ways so although the Orbe SE may not have grooved for you, thousands of Orbe buyers worldwide cannot be wrong about their own personal choices or are you suggesting that they are?

I'm just laughing out loud here but let's assume that you are correct that my analogue rig cost me GBP 5K (even though you are so wildly out even by U.K retail price standards) which CDPs costing around GBP 2500 (your recommended 50% figure) would you suggest that I audition. Now, given that the Michell decks have now gained a reputation for lacking groove (according to WM's definition of groove) you know where my preferences lie so the players you recommend would have to include one or two players that also lack groove just to see if that is my preferred sound? I eagerly await your suggestions sir, which will no doubt be blind-tested (in the final analysis) against the Mitchell deck.

P.S. Why pay brand new retail prices if you can get components, cables etc for much, much less or even second-hand. Surely, given the first one to two years severe depreciation rates on many hifi components, even you would agree that that's the sensible option to take, no?




Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

[7_V]

Originally posted by wadia-miester
I too lawrie have been underwhelmed, by anaolgue only 2 decks have come close to capturing the true music, although good The OrbeSE ( without question is one of the better ones) just isn't one of them, thought saying that we did actually get one to groove (albeit minorly) at Heathrow. (with the aid of Steve from Mitchele and Graham form Trichord)

I don't know whether the Orbe grooved less than the modified Wadia at Heathrow. I didn't really detect a difference in this regard, so clearly we all listen to music in different ways.

My own view was that the Wadia did exceptionally well, compared to an excellent turntable system, which included an SME V and a Koetsu Red. However, it still sounded less natural to my ears. When I just wanted to relax and listen to music I found myself choosing the Orbe.