DBT Report

I offer myself as a 'fricking one legged Martian ', or more mundanely, as a 'neutral party'.

I have absolutely no interest in the results. You can be more assured of this salient fact than your own existence.

God knows what i'm doing here.

Does anyone fancy a beer?

Let me know (about either the beer or the DBT)

Dino
 
Originally posted by michaelab

That's not really an impartial attitude to start off with is it? :D That's exactly why testing has to be double-blind so that the tester can't influence the results, whether deliberately or not.

We shouldn't be setting out to prove anything, instead we should be setting out to see if differences between cables can be reliably distinguished in DBT conditions.

Michael.
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Why isn't it impartial Michael? I merely stated that I am impartial. I accept that the word "prove" might be a bit strong but I think our objectives are the same. :p

Lawrie (and other?), how about coming up with constructive ideas for DBT instead pf ridiculing the now infamous "Myth Busting" day? which incidentally was an enjoyable day for all who attended.

What tests would you happy with?
 
Originally posted by cookiemonster
I offer myself as a 'fricking one legged Martian ', or more mundanely, as a 'neutral party'.

I have absolutely no interest in the results. You can be more assured of this salient fact than your own existence.

God knows what i'm doing here.

Does anyone fancy a beer?

Let me know (about either the beer or the DBT)
Click to expand...

Backslider. :D

Yes to the beer, when I return from the States. And you have my vote as a neutral party.

-- Ian
 
Originally posted by cookiemonster
I offer myself as a 'fricking one legged Martian ', or more mundanely, as a 'neutral party'.

Dino
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Are you suggesting that I won't be neutral? how dare you? put 'em up, put 'em up I say.

Welcome back Dino.

Originally posted by cookiemonster

Let me know (about either the beer or the DBT)

Dino
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Why not both?:D
 
Originally posted by Dev
Why isn't it impartial Michael?
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I'm sure you didn't mean to say it that way but saying "we only want to prove that there are differences between cables" kind of implies that what you would like to prove is that there are differences which isn't approaching the test with an open mind :) .

Rather than saying "we want to prove there are differences" it would be better to say "we want to find out if there are differences or not".

I'm sure the myth-busting day was enjoyable for all that attended and am disappointed I couldn't be there but it's hardly a suitable environment in which to run a proper test.

When we had a similar disussion a while back (really - did we? :D ) there were quite a few constructive suggestions made, notably by Paul Ranson, about how to run a proper DBT. I'll be the first to admit that there would be a lot of trouble and effort (and probably expense) involved and is it really worth it? I'm inclined to say "no, just listen to some music" but it might be worthwhile if it would put an end to this internecine warfare we seem to be having every month :rolleyes:

Michael.
 
Michael,

I still cannot see how the "changer" could influence the results, he will do exactly the same as the computer, randomly change the cables, and he is not voting nor seeing what the guinea pigs are writing down... :rolleyes:

Ian,

Dont play inocent now, you where the first to get very exercised by all this... ;)


No wonder there is war and unhappyness, everybody always trying to make the others be like them, religion, colour, sexual preference, football, even cables... :JPS:
 
Originally posted by lowrider
I still cannot see how the "changer" could influence the results, he will do exactly the same as the computer, randomly change the cables, and he is not voting nor seeing what the guinea pigs are writing down
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It's well documented that no matter how well intentioned the "changer" that they usually can't help subconciously giving out subtle facial and other body language clues that let the listeners know whether it's A or B they're listening to. The listeners themselves don't know that they're being influenced or how but they are.

In the case of an audio test, if the "changer" is never visible to the listeners and doesn't say anything they can hear then that's OK as he has no way of influencing them whether he intends to or not.

No wonder there is war and unhappyness, everybody always trying to make the others be like them, religion, colour, sexual preference, football, even cables... :JPS:
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That's a bit rich coming from you Antonio! You're always the one trying to convince everyone that your kit is the best there is :rolleyes:

Michael.
 
Originally posted by lowrider

I still cannot see how the "changer" could influence the results, he will do exactly the same as the computer, randomly change the cables, and he is not voting nor seeing what the guinea pigs are writing down... :rolleyes:
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You need to do some reading. The human being is not unbiased by nature.
 
Originally posted by michaelab
That's a bit rich coming from you Antonio! You're always the one trying to convince everyone that your kit is the best there is :rolleyes:
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Lately you have a tendency to follow idiot leads, give me one example to prove that stupid statement... :mad:
 
Originally posted by hununu
You need to do some reading. The human being is not unbiased by nature.
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That person was supposed to be behind a courtain, that was the initial proposal, how can he bias the test... :confused:
 
Originally posted by hununu
You need to do some reading. The human being is not unbiased by nature.
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Let's remember that adding ANYTHING to the reproduction chain can obscure differences in components.

I must admit, I really think it's a waste of time. Whatever we do within practical constraints will be mocked by the hardcore. So why bother?

If I decide to proceed,I will set the agenda, and will personally invite those who I feel are of sufficient level headedness and balance to take part. I have in mind the likely subjects, those whose opinions I respect even if they are at odds with my own. Hopefully some will come from the industry rather than just this place. Given that 20% are not going to be able to tell anything apart, it would seem stupid to ask them to take part. The listeners will be blindfolded, the only practical way to do this in a domestic enviroment. The blindfolds will be applied at least one hour before the listening tests.

But whatever you think Michael, I am genuinely amazed by the response. I've had the pleasure to meet many of you in person, and find most to be really interesting people. But pose a question on a forum, and Mr Hyde appears out of nowhere. that genuinely saddens me.

But hey, I'm just the resident wind up artist so maybe you should ignore everything.
 
Originally posted by lowrider
Lately you have a tendency to follow idiot leads, give me one example to prove that stupid statement... :mad:
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Lately you have a tendency to be very rude to other people on the forum for no good reason. I don't what you may be referring to with "follow idiot leads" but I'm my own man and am not following anyone's lead, whether in my hifi or any other area of my life.

I could give several examples that back up my statement but I won't because it would get very ugly and you would not enjoy it at all. I'm not the only person who believes my statement. What joel said earlier which you so rudely replied to was along similar lines and he's just going on your posts on this forum. I could recount conversations I've had with you and posts from other forums, but I won't. It simply isn't worth getting so upset about.

Michael.
 
Originally posted by michaelab
Lately you have a tendency to be very rude to other people on the forum for no good reason. I don't what you may be referring to with "follow idiot leads" but I'm my own man and am not following anyone's lead, whether in my hifi or any other area of my life.

I could give several examples that back up my statement but I won't because it would get very ugly and you would not enjoy it at all. I'm not the only person who believes my statement. What joel said earlier which you so rudely replied to was along similar lines and he's just going on your posts on this forum. I could recount conversations I've had with you and posts from other forums, but I won't. It simply isn't worth getting so upset about.
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It is so easy to lie, but still no examples... :JPS:
 
Originally posted by merlin
Let's remember that adding ANYTHING to the reproduction chain can obscure differences in components.
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I wondered how long it would take for that get out clause to rear it's head.

I must admit, I really think it's a waste of time. Whatever we do within practical constraints will be mocked by the hardcore.
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Read my previous quote of yours - looks like your the one already looking for a "mocking" angle ;)

If I decide to proceed,I will set the agenda, and will personally invite those who I feel are of sufficient level headedness and balance to take part.
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A receipie for a balanced and fair test that no one will contest the results of, no doubt :rolleyes: .

Given that 20% are not going to be able to tell anything apart, it would seem stupid to ask them to take part.
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That one experiment you posted at the start of the thread doesn't prove anything of the sort and yet you are now touting it as accepted fact. It said that 20% of the people they tested could not hear a 3dB resonance with an 85% confidence level. That has no bearing whatsoever on their ability to tell "anything apart".

But whatever you think Michael, I am genuinely amazed by the response. I've had the pleasure to meet many of you in person, and find most to be really interesting people. But pose a question on a forum, and Mr Hyde appears out of nowhere. that genuinely saddens me.
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The feeling is entirely mutual. I could have posted the exact same paragraph to sum up how I feel about you having met you a couple of times (thoroughly nice bloke) and your posts here (WTF??).

But hey, I'm just the resident wind up artist so maybe you should ignore everything.
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TBH I really don't know these days when you're being serious or going for a wind up :(

Michael.
 

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