do you get any front to back soundstage?

The sound field is not always an engineer effect, if you record using a figure 8, if theres depth in the room (obviously there is) you will get depth in the recording. Your just getting back what was there in the first place.
Just because people like to hear sound stage doesn't mean its the only emotional involvment, I don't think anyone suggested that at all, only if its part of the music, otherwise its just a nice thing like having good looking gear or whatever. It adds a solidity which for me can make the whole event seem more believable. I find it particularly noticeable on 'noise' records- on most things you get a wall of noise which sounds great, but on a good stereo you get the wall of noise but its 'disected' so you can actually hear what the musicians are doing to create the wall of noise. As long as the timing is still there (which it is as its a good system) this doesn't detract from things in anyway, it enhances them.

 

I can agree with that. Its probably worth pointing out the naim equipment is not capable of removing soundstage, I can hear one. I need to concentrate though, I need to want to hear.

Invariably soundstages I have heard that are kinda forced on you are systmes that a seriously lacking in what I want in music. As usual horses for courses.

BTW I have a bit of dub, but am not really a Dub man so I have not made any special instances to listen out for soundstage here. Things like infected mushroom however are moving the sliders about and you can clearly get a sense of this on my system, however what pervades is the whole piece, Infected Mushroom I find a little main stream its good music though.

Most of my listening is electronica, Warp records etc. As to if they focus on soundstage is difficult to say, what I do know is as it stands it sounds great, I would find it detrimental to the music to have persistant sound just off left to the front of me (for instance)

 

You are missing out on alot of warp stuff if you don't get it, stuff like Aphex and BOC, Venetian etc. all have loads of imaging, thing orbiting in and out of the speakers etc. Theres a track on Geogaddi where you only hear the same kick drum sound about twice, practically every drum sound is a different sample and they kind of bounce backwards into the image. Can't remember which one, will have to have a listen. Thats proper 'musical' imaging if you see what I mean.

Thats not to say it isn't any good without it of course.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that. Soundstage certainly is an illusion (you hear sound coming from between the speakers allthough there is nothing there) but it's not imaginary.

 

Sorry Michael, I was referring to Gary's comment above. Do note the use of the word "imagine"

 

Naim amps image if you don't go for "flatearth" speakers (ie, ones that get rammed up against the wall, e.g. most Naim ones). Certainly my rig can portray a decent soundstage if there's one to speak of, and whilst it's not as wide or deep as some, it's "good enough".

As for band limited? So what!? So's CD by definition. Vinyl on my rig doesn't sound that band limited - who needs frequency response up to 100Khz anyway? ~25Khz is all you really need.

 

Dom,

don't you have one of the new series of Naim amps?

bandwidth limiting? Listen to a truly wide range system then tell me it doesn't matter. Listen to the effects of limiting and then listen to Olive Naim. Then tell me you cannot hear the affect. Nothing wrong with it, but it is clear to me, just as some cables provide Naim like qualities by acting as a low pass filter IMO.

 

Another technique used by engineers is to make the sound 'live' I think a high filter is used, I think people will probably understand what I am saying.

I find that annoying too as like soundstage, its not real life.

 

I think the understanding by people that speakers aginst a wall can't soundstage prooves my point beyond doubt.

Sound comes out the front of the speaker, the fact you feel you are getting more soundstage froma speaker in the room is that your eyes do not see a wall directly behind them. In other words you believe there to be a sound stage.

That would annoy me immensly.

 

Gary, hey, we usually agree on most things (AFAICT) but I don't buy this. Pushing speakers up against a wall generally forces said speakers to fire at right angles to the wall. This means that the axes don't cross, which means that the stereo image isn't really formed as well (it's more of a dual-Mono). At one time I owned a fairly top of line Naim system with perhaps the greatest imaging speakers of all - the Audiophysic Virgo III. With the 52/SC/250 system I got great imaging, all the PRaT I could want and basically a really musical, involving sound. I've also heard similar systems with the 'backs against the wall' style speakers sound great in PRaT ways but with no real sense of imaging - i.e. it was all in the plane between the speakers.

I've moved on from Naim now - there is better for less IMHO - and I'm back with Audiophysic speakers (their big sisters, which are an altogether different beastie indeed) and imaging is palpable, but in my experience Naim does image if speakers are setup with some toe-in and away from boundaries. However, convention dictates that the sorts of speakers that would be used up against a wall would sound wrong if arranged in such a way - hence the myth that Naim doesn't image.

 

Sorry Mike, hadn't seen that one.

Michael.

 

Stereo isn't stereo full stop if the speakers aren't at 30degrees either side of the normal, that is part of the basic definition of stereo.

Gary: Close your eyes then Seriously, it works much better that way. Maybe your not noticing the difference off axis because your speakers aren't angled? Try sticking them at 30degrees even if they're still against the wall.

 

I agree Anex, I think I mentioned closing my eyes and concentrating.

As I say though we all listen to music differently, in general if I want to concentrate on some music I will sit down by the fire and have a listen, again though my thoughts for the evening are not how I can measure my soundstage or check my position relative to the speakers.

Talking of which I have some new music to try.

 

You don't know what your missing

 

I repeat ...get the test disc and see, I can't say it any other way. Why make a test for up and down if its not possible ..............?

 

Er, to make money?

Cable lifters anyone?

 

Have to say that I found a definite introduction of depth to the sound of my system with the replacement of my Naim amps with the BC.
Note that there is a lot of depth, but there is enough to introduce a massive improvement in the separation of instruments. With my old Naim gear, instrument sounds would be blurred and intermixed across the stereo image. With the BC, there is enough depth to make singling out instruments MUCH easier. The result is a far less fatiguing and more enjoyable way to listen to music.

 

You are right that there's "Nothing wrong with it". As Dom pointed out, CD cuts out below 23kHz, and the Naim noise filters are set at 50 KHz.

If you believe in "imaging", Naim systems "image" just as well as anything else does (or doesn't). Garyi is rightly pointing out that this is an unimportant aspect of hi-fi, to any normal person.

 

Don't really think about soundstage depth. Its just there and can startling at times. Seem to have greater depth on the L/H side. R/H side wall has a large window with floorlength curtains and a comfy chair quite neat the speaker although I move this for serious sessions. Can't say if this adds to the enjoyment as like I said earlier, its always been there.

 

I don't know how people can say there is not even left, right imaging.

Someone I know who is not that keen on Hi-Fi once sat down and took a listen to my system and then asked 'have they done something to the recording to make it sound like the voice is coming from the middle of the speakers?' - she had just not heard a system with soundstage and imaging before but heard it on mine even though she didn't know it existed before then! Depth I don’t pay much attention to, my system does it but I have heard others do it better and as the kind of music I listen to doesn’t have much anyway (studio recordings) I am not too fussed. Height does not exist as far as I am aware but I do kind of notice low frequencies coming from lower down than very high frequencies, probably just because HF is more directive.