Extremely interesting discussion on the various merits of Rock, classical and Jazz, and that's just

[lordsummit]

It is interesting to see two members slugging it out. Becuase as far as I'm concerned the pinnacle of the Western Classical Tradition are pieces like Mozarts great C minor mass, the Bach Matthew and and John Passions, Beethovens Eroica and Choral Symphonies, Wagner's Ring. There is nothing wrong with art, so don't knock it because you don't understand it.
Led Zeppelin, they're great in their own way too, but artistically and intellectually they don't compare to the above pieces. Yep Robert Plant can wail like few others, and Jimmy Page plays a mean guitar, and I suspect their legacy will be more permanant than many classical composers, especially those of the 20th Century. But to my mind you're comparing an Athena print to a Turner or Van Gogh original. I love rock music, but ultimately it is unsubtle, and naive compared to the artistic achievements of some of those you mock.

 

[Markus S]

The Mana forum is alive and well, as apparently is the company.


Tones, one of these days, I'd like to meet you. Anybody who is so wrong about LedZep but can write new lyrics for one of their songs at the drop of a hat must be interesting.

 

[tones]

Again, a typical resonse from someone who just had the truth stare at him in the face.

I guess then we must have different definitions of truth and what you understand as "truth" I understand as "utter humbug and con-artistry".

I'm not about to give you a "Led Zep" fight

Spoilsport!

you are wrong

Here come dem pots and kettle again!

I'm not a great fan of their work

On that, at least we are agreed.

I see from your hifi as well that you are a man who likes living in the past.

I'm flattered! I prefer to think that, like the musical world, the hi-fi world has not improved, just the volume of deception, humbug and outright lies.

I hope I will not reach the stereotypical phase of putting down anything recent as inferior.

Now, did I do that? There are some quite agreeable modern sounds, it's just that Led Zeppelin doesn't happen to be among them. However, I'm very happy for you to like LedZed and to pretend it's music. As Voltaire said, I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say that. Whether he would have said that having heard LedZed is of course another matter entirely...

 

[tones]

The Mana forum is alive and well, as apparently is the company.


Tones, one of these days, I'd like to meet you. Anybody who is so wrong about LedZep but can write new lyrics for one of their songs at the drop of a hat must be interesting.

Not worth the effort, Markus! I just make no bones about it, I don't pretend to be broad-minded about music, I regard LedZep and most rock as total rubbish. In any case, when one has the vast spread of western classical from Gregorian chant to modern, plus jazz, Eastern and traditional music, who needs the commercially overwhelming but artistically pathetic (with some honourable exceptions - no, not them!) rock?

 

[Stereo Mic]

I love rock music, but ultimately it is unsubtle, and naive compared to the artistic achievements of some of those you mock.

I am not mocking classical music - I enjoy it. My contention is that, as an emotional force, it is in no way superior to more modern or more distant forms of music. If it has a level of superiority it is intellectual. Music should not be an intellectual excercise IMO. That misses the point.

 

[Stereo Mic]

However, I'm very happy for you to like LedZed and to pretend it's music.

Interesting. Could you provide me with a definitive definition of music in less than 30 words please?

 

[lordsummit]

I'll give you one, Music is simply organised sound.

My contention is that, as an emotional force, it is in no way superior to more modern or more distant forms of music. If it has a level of superiority it is intellectual. Music should not be an intellectual excercise IMO.

TBH my friend I think you miss the point, classical music is great because it functions on two levels, most modern music is simply one dimensional. You nearly hit the mark but ended up far from it. You identified the key point about it being intellectually satisfying, but you miss out how emotional the music itself is. Why do think most films use a score based on the Western Classical tradition? Which composers/writers of the modern genres can create the wide range of emotions that Wagner, Strauss or Shostokovitch can and be intellectually challenging to boot?

 

[Stereo Mic]

Why do think most films use a score based on the Western Classical tradition?

Err because they are western Classical films?

I see little evidence of Brahms when watching world cinema, nor when watching a great deal of western output these days. the soundtrack has to a large extent replaced the score.

 

[tones]

Interesting. Could you provide me with a definitive definition of music in less than 30 words please?

Anything that isn't a bl***y awful racket, such as LedZed (Hey, I still have 20 words to go! What am I going to do with them?).

I can only say that, if you don't recognise it now, perhaps you never will. Dem's da breaks.
(Omigosh, 2200 posts! 2200 bits of sheer drivel! How do I do it? More to the point, why?)

 

[leonard smalls]

Which composers/writers of the modern genres can create the wide range of emotions that Wagner, Strauss or Shostokovitch can and be intellectually challenging to boot?

You want to listen to some jazz!
Not dinner jazz-lite, but something challenging.. If you can cope with Shostakovich, or Rimsky Korsakov, or Varese even you can most certainly cope with Ornette Coleman, or even Derek Bailey!

 

[Stereo Mic]

Anything that isn't a bl***y awful racket, such as LedZed (Hey, I still have 20 words to go! What am I going to do with them?).

I can only say that, if you don't recognise it now, perhaps you never will. Dem's da breaks.
(Omigosh, 2200 posts! 2200 bits of sheer drivel! How do I do it? More to the point, why?)

So your definition of music would be anything you like would it?

How crass

 

[lordsummit]

So that'll be the 150 or so Jazz LP's I have then Leanord, including, Coleman, Coltrane, Dolphy, Mingus etc...... I love jazz and find it one of the most satisfying of music forms. The procession of Blue Notes et al to my house recently has kept my local post office going I feel!

Stereo Mic the western classical tradition has nothing to do with cowboys, and is all to do with cultural heritage, it is as opposed to the eastern classical tradition (Chinese Opera, Javanese Gamelan etc) or the Indian Classical Tradition (Raga) So think about John Williams film scores, Gladiator.

Perhaps I should split this thread and put this bit somewhere else. I'll do it at lunchtime

 

[joel]

Perhaps I should split this thread and put this bit somewhere else. I'll do it at lunchtime

Please do, could be good...

 

[joel]

or even Derek Bailey!

And if you can cope with Derek Bailey, you possibly stand a chance with Pansori or Gagaku

 

[Stereo Mic]

Stereo Mic the western classical tradition has nothing to do with cowboys, and is all to do with cultural heritage, it is as opposed to the eastern classical tradition (Chinese Opera, Javanese Gamelan etc) or the Indian Classical Tradition (Raga) So think about John Williams film scores, Gladiator.

You misread my post. The films you refer to were western classical , the likes or LOTR, Star Wars, Saving Private Ryan, etc, many of which contain John williams scores.

this is a tiny percentage of world cinema. That was my point. Watch Tarantino movies, and many imitators. watch Richard curtis films if you can manage it. No classical scores, simply well assembled soundtracks based on evocative modern music.

Such snobbery surrounds classical music that even though I enjoy some once in a while, I am loathe to admit to it. Many forms of music work on an intellectual level as peoples intellects vary thoughout the world.

Still no sensible definition of music from those claiming exclusive rights?

 

[tones]

So your definition of music would be anything you like would it?

How crass

Ha, putting words into my mouth again, are you? Naughty man! Now THAT's crass! No, it's just a fact that there is music and there are bl***y awful rackets that pretend to be music, such as It-Which-Cannot-Be-Named. But, please, PLEASE be assured that I really, REALLY don't object to your listening to bl***y awful rackets and calling them music. I shall continue to listen to the real thing and ignore your particular sound universe completely.

 

[tones]

Still no sensible definition of music from those claiming exclusive rights?

Please indicate where anyone claimed exclusive rights. I don't actually recall anyone doing so. I merely said that LedZed is a bl***y awful racket and I stand by that. My friend Lord Summit likes a bit of LedZed (and I respect his right to do so, even if it's something I cannot share). He can never be accused of claiming exclusive rights.

And of course you love the old "snobbery" argument. Now, if there's any argument that is an avoidance of facing facts, this is it. The fact is that classical music is simply superior in quality and emotional content to rock. Indeed, every musical tradition known to man that isn't crassly commercial (as is rock) is superior in quality and emotional content to rock. Listen to any traditional music, be it European, African, Asian. Rock really is the lowest common denominator, the absolute musical sink-hole of the universe - and that's fact, not snobbery. OK, perhaps you can't handle that. Fine by me. As I said, if you enjoy it, that's your privilege and your right, and I would not deny it to you. Please continue to enjoy, as I enjoy mine.

 

[joel]

YMany forms of music work on an intellectual level as peoples intellects vary thoughout the world.

What a bizarre thing to say. People are remarkably similar everywhere. Patterns of opportunity vary, people, on the whole, do not.

 

[Stereo Mic]

Sorry Joel, you misunderstand me. I don't mean that any one country is intellectually superior to another, just that within countries, citizens intellects do vary.

 

[Stereo Mic]

Please indicate where anyone claimed exclusive rights. I don't actually recall anyone doing so. I merely said that LedZed is a bl***y awful racket and I stand by that.

You claimed that it is only pretending to be music, by inferrence suggesting that you know what music is. As a large number of people would think that Zep was music, you are actually telling them they are wrong. So please do point out why they are wrong.

Your statements simply ooze snobbery. If classical and traditional music is so vastly superior, and we accept that music is a form of communication (do we?), why do so few actually appreciate it? Why do so many the world over enjoy the likes of The Eagles or The Beatles?