Fake degrees - This *legal* company makes me feel sick

Sorry AT - didn't mean to offend...I am a stickler for spellings & pick up on it at work all the time...I set the standards, and I think it is important...most people hate me for it..

 

When was she at Heywood. I taught there between 1996 and 1997. Coo what a small world!

 

But is it my fault if I have not recieved that education? I wasn't lazy at school and I tried my best, much of what I write expecialy on this heated thread is just typo's.

Some people are also better at spelling than others, just because you may not be able to spell it dosn't mean you're thick or poorly educated, it just means a certain part of ones education was not up to scratch.

As I said much earlier in this thread poor spelling is quite common amongst my generation, and the government have finally admited that their policies during the 1980's and early 90's didn't work. Apparantly primary school teachers have gone back to a more old fashioned way of teaching with regards to spelling and grammar and it seems to be working. My 10 year old niece and probably spell better than me.

Spelling is a bit like languages, the earlier you learn it the easier it is. So if you learn it badly it becomes difficult to correct.

I don't ever pretend my spelling and grammar is perfect, I know it needs a lot of work in many areas, but the example which was pulled out was a result of a heated argument written in a rush. No doubt if I read this back I will find millions of errors in it.

My grammar and spelling is ok when it comes to writing important reports and that is the main thing.

 

Its ok, I know my spelling is rubbish, but its not like I just mess about at school for five years, I tried my best and made the best of the limited resources around me at that time.

I tend to pull people up for swearing and people hate me for that as well Although my best mate never swears now so it worked

 

The irony is also that because I have spent so long arguing on this thread I have not done the work I hoped to get done tonight

 

FWIW, my company is now offering TEFL lessons to employees whose first language is not english...and there are many. I am hiring some of them. They are often better educated (albeit not in english), harder working & really hungry to better themselves ..... so qualifications are not the be all & end all...attitidude & ability are much more important (IMO).

...the UK will wake up to the fact at some point...

Oops - edited to say - this is not a racist/immigration related comment!!

I mean that the UK will wake up to the fact that the education system has been in decline for many years & trying to keep everyone happy by lowering standards to the lowest common denominator will not work!! As I said earlier, I am scared for the future.

 

I had the luxury of extra time in my exams, which definately helped me to attian two A's and a B at A-level, ive been diagnosed as dyslexic, having ADD, Having dyspraxia, all sorts.

Id like to think that my A levels arent worthless, and that neither is the degree that im taking. I can clearly see that standards are different to yesteryear, but is this not sometimes irrelevant when advances in modern technology make learning certain practices a waste of time and effort.

Don't get me wrong though, good spelling and mental arithmetic is still very much necessary.

I did latin for five years at school (detentions if i didnt learn the stupid vocab) and couldn't stand it, but in retrospect now it is actually rather usuefull in understanding other languages and the meaning and roots of words. It's definately true that if you dont ajhve a degree these days you are going nowhere fast on the job market.

why do the government have to force universities to accept more people from different backgrounds, I mean, if they dont make the grade then why should they go. Although it is definately true that many people are much luckier than others who simply may not have the smae oppertunities.

we're not entirely useless AT

oh, and the spelling is a result of fast careless typing. People seem to get more and more casual in their emails and communications these days, and I suppose I'm much the same

 

I have dyspraxia but I don't think I have dyslexia, you made a good point about learning aids. Also despite my spelling being poor I hate people that think a spell checker is the answer to everything because its not, if you have poor grammar and spelling a spell checker is not going to be much use.

Spell checkers are still very useful, they do make life easier but they don't make you a good speller.

The same applies to maths, being able to use a calculator does not mean you're good at maths. I was always useless and sums at school because I could never see how they applied to anything, my brain works in a way that I have to see it to believe it, so I have found with programming my maths is more than good enough because I can see it action.

A good example is when I designed a loudspeaker a few years back, I never got to build it, but I understood the forumula's in a book which where required to select the correct tweeter height in relation to the woofer etc.

If I go into business with this idea I have got (it seems other companies are moving in fast so by the time I can put anything on the market it may already be out of date) my degree won;t be much use at all.

I don't regret going to university at all though, even though I have a 20 year old cousin who is currently a director, I think the stuff I have learn't will come in very useful.

 

Needham you bitch!
I spit on your one O level failure.
You weren't trying hard enough sir. I failed 4. I still passed 5 when they meant something. I also have claim to the possibly unique honour of possessing 2 O levels in Metalwork. An O at O level, and an O at A level.
Beat that Paul merson.
By the way peeps people have complained about declining educational standards since the time of the ancient Greeks. I passed my 11 plus many years ago and went to a grammar school but all 3 of my kids are far better educated than I was.

Bob

 

It's somewhat depressing that all the sample questions in the Engineering Council paper referenced up thread are O-Level stuff.

Paul

 

I was one of the first who did the gcse after o level, and then a level.

I don't think, no I know, kids are not cleverer academically, they are smarter, more streetwise, yes, and the emphasis has altered.

Instead of comprehending and facts, more academic, its about piffly stuff such as written work and assignments. Traditional education is more rigorous.

yes it is more use in parts the world, but standards have dropped.

Employers want both...they want application...modern teaching, and academic rigour, the balance has gone the other way to falsely improve stds.

You can't have a poor poly graduate design a modern car engine, you need nigh on a genius.

There was a load taken out of the gcse syllabus, and all the hard stuff was removed from the a level.

I did an hnd in electronics and found that VERY hard due to poor mathematical understanding even tho I got a c in gcse.

I got a c in english, yet my understanding of the language, spelling usage and grammar in way superior to someone I know who got an a.

They marked the 1st gcse's harder, for the very fear that it would appear stds had been dumbed down so much that there would be uproar. My grades suffered a bit consequentially. That is fact.

I trained as a teacher, and bits have been removed every year, the emphasis has changed.

Kids are now allowed text books into exams!!! to refer to. What's the point to just quote?

This co-incides with grades getting better, its marketing, and its engineered to cleverly appear that things are improving, but its just different. Absolutely standards have been changed, yes, less rigorous, to suit the government.

It really does employers no good tho as they complain that things aren't the same, and unis have to go over stuff they previously didn't have too.

Its so hard, its insidious, complex and designed to be, to confuse, obfuscate....its spin and Blair's govt are responsible you can't trust them, but if you understand what has happened, its obvious. That's the reason for the endless debate as its enshrouded in complex levels of argument and redesign, like a lot of modern issues, neither good, bad, black, white, but shades of grey.
I rest my case....
hell I wasnt' even tought history past 3rd year or latin, it really was dumbed down and I feel a little cheated I didn't get a 'proper' education.

This is what blairs education education education means, not academic rigorous traditional, but spin, hazy nebulous standards and redefining, with downgrading and changing the teaching emphasis to give the illusion that kids are getting cleverer to give the middle class parents reason to re-elect caus the think kids will get a better chance in the world.
If everone is clever, its harder to get a good job, and now the result is graduates have to fight for basic jobs, a real 'why the hell did I do a degree?'

 

Hi

Interesting

I have to agree with Richard (Lordsummit) on this. The Government want more and more people to have degrees. More and more places have have offered them. Some universities have got bigger and bigger. Until recently, I worked in a science department at a university. I have seen the many changes. I have seen the student population nearly double. I have seen new degrees spring up.

Having been involved in the education of students, there has been a lowering of standards and a rise in new degrees. A lot of this is due to getting bums on seats and more money for the Universities in question. Some of these degrees have been the latest buzz items. Media has been one. In our department, we had a Media Science degree. Students on this didn't need high grades at A level and many only had one science subject at GCSE.

I don't fully agree with Richard at old Polys. Some Polytechnics offered excellent degrees and further courses a number were a lot better than a lot of red brick universities. A large number of people on the Physics courses in the department, where I worked, have ended up working in top science places like Rutherford Labs and CERN. Our school had the most number of PHD students in the unversity.

In fact our department did well in the Quality Assurance Agency for Higher Education (QAA) survey. In fact we got maximum points, 24 out of 24. But the management at Sheffield Hallam, in their infinite wisdom, have closed the department down.

http://www.qaa.ac.uk/

http://www.qaa.ac.uk/revreps/subj_level/q179_00.pdf

I agree there should be more done to get people to learn certain skills and trades which are much needed. Some schools are starting to address this with GNVQ options instead of GCSEs. These are done with real work placements.

I would say that GCSEs and A levels are easier overall. That is one thing I have noticed during my current teacher training. It is a lot easy now, to get a C at GCSE. I have seen papers and marked some. There are more options at GCSE such as different levels like Higher tier and foundation level.

AT, what school did you go to? Here is a list of Manchester schools. Manchester Academy has the worst A-C results.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/...ables/secondary_schools/html/352_gcse_lea.stm

The national average at the moment is 53.7% A-C. This has been increasing for a few years. There are still a number of people who are failing in the education system but a number of these are only failing in certain areas. But some of these areas are quite important. A lot of people will come out with something. There was a article in the TES about the % for certain grades being less than they were before in perivious years.

I don't think that is the case. A number kids don't have good awareness of alot of things.

Don't get me wrong, there are many good and interesting pupils in schools. But they can only pass the exams that they are given. Teachers only have to teach a curriculum that they are given. If this is of a lower standard, in a way, you can't blame the pupils or the teachers. Yes you should be proud in passing exams.

A number of kids, if taught the old 'O' levels courses, would pass them.


SCIDB

 

I went to Ducie High School which was closed down, it is now known as Manchester Academy. I left in 1999.

Just a little twist to this, ok suppose exams have got easier, people are doing much more A levels now than they used to, its quite common for people to sit 4 or 5 A levels espeicaly with regards to Oxbridge.

In 1973 my dad got a CCD offer to read Geography at Cambridge University, he has even shown me his UCATT (as UCAS was known then) form which prooved it.

Now you would need AAA and would be rejected if you cannot proove you support fox hunting and ride pony's every week and daddy has enough money to donate to the universities fox testing research labs

These days CCD offers are the reserve of the lower universities, apart from some science subjects where demand is dropping.

My university had to drop Chemestry despite it having a good reputation in the area (22 teaching score, 5 star research - I think). The reason they dropped it is because it was much cheaper to teach media studies than chemestry as the government don't ive the university enough money for these subjects to make it worth while.

Just another thing which may support the increase in pass rates, the teaching style has changed some what, in the old days you were taught the subject, now you're taught how to pass exams, this is wrong I admit, but it is not the students who are taking these exams fault as you rightly point out.

Every August when people get the grades, it often feels like a stab in the back when they are told how useless they are. Many of these people have worked extremely hard for their grades.

 

In 1973 your father would have been interviewed for a place at Cambridge, almost certainly after taking the entrance exam.....depending on how they liked the look of him (attitude & ability), they would have made an offer...CCD means they quite liked him!
It would indicate that he was able to think & reason for himself, and present an eloquent & logical argument.... rather than present a bundle of exam results for which he had learnt answers to questions by rote & handed in coursework cribbed from websites...
As they always have been, Oxbridge are very selective. That is why they are well regarded. Although it sounds pompous, I think that the University is more important than the class of degree....always has been....and is becoming more so.
Currently, the gulf between the best & worst..err, not quite so good... is still widening.
If presented wth 3 CVs with purely academic qualifications to distinguish between them, which would be your preference between a 3rd from Oxford, a 2.1 from Birmingham & a 1st from Barnsley (I am hoping that Barnsley University doesn't exist, so as not to cause offence - apologies if it does!) :JPS:

Sad state of affairs...demand is dropping because people don't want to do it (or can't do it) because they are not taught the basics... my company has put several youngsters through college (HNC/HND). More than half have dropped out because the maths was too hard...
...then again, maybe people don't do it because the money (after they graduate) is crap...even sadder state of affairs....

 

You can't really blame people though why would you put your self through a chemestry degree if the money is poor (although I think most science degrees pay well).

The class of degree is a matter of opinion, I would have though the interiview is more important and how you can demonstrate what you have learn't.

When I got my part time job I had no trouble competing with students from better students (the job is an undergraduate level job).

The gap is widening between poor and good universities, Bolton is a classic example, I was appalled at the standards of their IT department, some of the examples they showed were very very easy (such as a simple web form that send data to a database, its basic stuff). Having said that my university is not regarded that well in some places (Salford).

 

Hi

The thing is, there are many clever kids in schools. There always have been and will be. The clever kids will still pass the exams, it's just that exams are easier and more people will past them.

I don't thinks kids are more streetwise at all today.

There is nothing wrong with written work and assignments. It depends on the topics and depth covered.

Pupils do need a varied education to allow them to meet todays and tomorrows life. Things are changing as many employers and businesses are getting involved with schools.

But has happen for a number of years. Different governments and educations ministers have had different ideas on education. Things will always changed.

This is not fully true. Certain books can be allowed but these are not the usual text boxes. People still have to answers the questions. It's just that some of the formats for answers are more user friendly.

Any government with increasing results will crow about them. You can have a go at Blair for a lot of thing but a number of school were failing badly under the Torys. There has always been big problems in education. Many schools were going down hill rapidly. Also schools are not equal. For years a large number were in poor condition, badly designed with bad teachers.

Just look at some of the results of some of the inner city schools and deprived area schools over the years. Just look at the results of private and posh area schools. They can vary widly.

I very much agree it is a complex issue and it's not easy to solve. I do think a number of schools have made great inroads in good education.

I wasn't either. We didn't have latin at our school. I didn't do history because I prefered to do other things. Why do you feel it's was dumbed down? At the end of the day, school can't teach everything. They never could. At the end of the 3rd year (year 9), you choose subjects to study. You are at the mercy of what the school offers. This will be governed by the size of the school, size of staff, facillities on offer, number of pupils.

There are not enough hours in the day.

Middle class people have always done well in education. A lot of them go to better schools that push the pupils to aim higher in life. This has always happened.

Every government will change the emphasis of education.

If every one was clever, the cleverer people will get the better jobs. The downside of a lot of people getting degrees is that there are not the graduate jobs for them. If 50% of population gets degrees, 50% of the vaccancies will not require a degree. To be truth, a lot of jobs don't require a degree. It just that companies just ask for one.

I know a number of people with degrees in postions that didn't require a degree. They got the jobs on personal qualities. A degree can help to develop these but not always.,


SCIDB

 

FFS, Bolton Tech is a UNIVERSITY!

Quad erat demonstrandum.

Ed.

P.S. For a translation, please take O level Latin.

 

I don't think 50% of the population will get degrees, the government don't even want this, what they want is 50% of under 30's to have some sort of HE experience, this includes HNCs, HHDs, and foundation degrees.

There is also education for education sake, my sister is at Manchester university now, not becuase she needs it for her job, but because it will wide her oppurtunities even if she ends up in a none graduate job.

When I did my GCSEs the only book I could take into exams as my english anthology you were expected to answer questions about poems. All this book contained is the poems.

You could also take forumula sheets into maths but this of course is useless if you don't know how to use exams. Also just to clarify a point you will probably know but for others her, you must sit a none calculator exam in order to pass GCSE maths.

My school was very poor in many ways, but learning was never the most important thing for most of the kids there. The governments answer is to through money at the problem, but that is not the problem at all in this case.

 

Apparantly, though it will be about the second worst ranked in the country. I see it as no threat at all to me.

http://www.bolton.ac.uk/

You can do science degrees here with two E's according to the MEN. It still has one of the poorest records for jobs int he country so I wouldn't worry. It has a good reputation in many areas but I don't think it should be a university.

 

When I did my GCEs, I was allowed nothing - pencils were provided!

I also recalll taking extreme pleasure when at Oldham Tech (almost certainly now Oldham University ) in beating the kids with those new fangled calculators to the answer by using log tables...

Ed.

P.S. For an expaination of what log tables are, please take O level Maths...