Financing Zerogain

[rsand]

wife,kid, house to support , so don't ask me

what about taking a small % of the sale of kit through the second hand section, might be difficult to police but most people are honest

You use it don't you? The odd £5 is not a big ask, its less than 2 pints, half a CD, one 25th of a TV license! Donating is optional anyway, you could just let other people pay for your entertainment

When you let kit go for less than you really want to, your not likely to want to lose another % from it, the sales section would die in favour of other forum for sales although a sale could be a prompt to donate another £5?

I don't think Isaac's talking lots of money per person, but small amounts from many 'leverage' add up to much. Example look at how many posts you make (your contribution) compared to the total when added to everyone elses (leverage).

 

[auric]

I feel that Joel and Markus best mirror my views and I wonder if styling the forum along the lines of Mozilla (no sigs, no moving avitars, no pasting images into ZG, all images hosted outside of ZG) would help minimise bandwidth cost?

One example of creating an income stream is to have a premium service and I know that this has been touched upon by several posters and all I can think of is putting the advertising in a premium members only area so that nonpremuim members don't pay and are not subject to intrusive adverts while those who subscribe can fill their boots whenever they wish.

What would be the mechanics of installing and the cost of running such a money / donation collection service?

 

[I-S]

I don't want to take the forum that spartan. I think that having avatars makes things much more personal and enjoyable as people can customise it a bit for them. I think it would be very unpopular to remove avatars, and charging to have an avatar is likely to put some people off.

I want to maintain the very inclusive nature of Zerogain, and the community spirit. If people were to donate, would that give you the feeling that you've made more of a contribution and that you're a part of things more?

 

[Joe]

I don't want to take the forum that spartan. I think that having avatars makes things much more personal and enjoyable as people can customise it a bit for them. I think it would be very unpopular to remove avatars, and charging to have an avatar is likely to put some people off.

I want to maintain the very inclusive nature of Zerogain, and the community spirit. If people were to donate, would that give you the feeling that you've made more of a contribution and that you're a part of things more?

Can I repeat my earlier question, ie are the proposed changes, which seem to be the factor requiring additional income, necessary to the future of ZG, or are they just 'nice to have' but non-essential icing on the cake? If the latter, then I suggest keeping things more or less as they are.

 

[Dev]

If people were to donate, would that give you the feeling that you've made more of a contribution and that you're a part of things more?

Yes, I think.

 

[joel]

I want to maintain the very inclusive nature of Zerogain, and the community spirit. If people were to donate, would that give you the feeling that you've made more of a contribution and that you're a part of things more?

Yes. I think it's worth a try at the very least - especially if you can make the accounts open to the membership.
I also like the avatars, it makes a nice contrast with PFM , but, but, why not make them a badge of membership. That is a really good idea. One, in fact, I wish I'd thought of.

 

[michaelab]

One warning about a potential problem that might arise with voluntary contributions, which goes to the forums neutrality: if certain people paid, say, £50 for a year and others nothing or only a fiver then those who paid more might expect favourable treatment from the mods in return which is a very dangerous area to get into. If people make contributions it will have to be made absolutely clear that that doesn't improve their "status" on the forum as regards moderation or taking sides in arguments etc. They will be just as able to have posts deleted, be banned even, as everyone else. Might have to decide in advance what the policy on returning of donations (or not) is if someone gets banned. As long as it's all made clear up front there shouldn't be a problem.

Michael.

 

[Markus S]

Isn't it the premise of a donation that you get nothing in return?

Michael, spill the beans, what were your running costs?

 

[joel]

Might have to decide in advance what the policy on returning of donations (or not) is if someone gets banned. As long as it's all made clear up front there shouldn't be a problem.

That's a very good point. As long as the rules are *crystal clear* it shouldn't be a problem. Membership should have some benefits, which ties in nicely with bandwidth usage, but there needs to be something more - hence the avatars.
Hope you are well Michael. Long time no hear!
NP Plant's concert on on Radio 2 . Really excellent. Percy's best work in more than a quarter of a century I think even WM will like this set, but don't let my recommendation put you all off

 

[vibbles]

I'm someone who only posts occasionally but I would be very sad if any changes lost independence, it's one of the forums best aspects.

Providing the advertising was fairly muted, I would have no problem at all with it.

Donations is also a good course to take, although forming an elite by using the Avatar to signify donation is to be avoided

just my opinion,

David

 

[amazingtrade]

One warning about a potential problem that might arise with voluntary contributions, which goes to the forums neutrality: if certain people paid, say, £50 for a year and others nothing or only a fiver then those who paid more might expect favourable treatment from the mods in return which is a very dangerous area to get into. If people make contributions it will have to be made absolutely clear that that doesn't improve their "status" on the forum as regards moderation or taking sides in arguments etc. They will be just as able to have posts deleted, be banned even, as everyone else. Might have to decide in advance what the policy on returning of donations (or not) is if someone gets banned. As long as it's all made clear up front there shouldn't be a problem.

Michael.

This already happens on a forum I am a member of, I subsribed a few times and becuase of this I can get away with murder (as longs as I don't swear etc) where as other people get warned for doing the same thing.

 

[joel]

Isn't it the premise of a donation that you get nothing in return?

Then call it a contribution to the Widows' pension fund

 

[joel]

I can get away with murder

Their spellchecker/online translator is most likely broken. Anyway, your idea of "murder" is cluedo.

 

[sideshowbob]

The old PFM forum used to be run from periodic donations. A sticky at the top of each room with a Paypal address, and then a gentle reminder whenever necessary, seems like a good place to start.

I really don't like web advertising. I think that should be a last resort. If the active posters here aren't committed enough to donate a few quid every now and then to fund the place then they're a bunch of feckless bastards

-- Ian

 

[rsand]

If the active posters here aren't committed enough to donate a few quid every now and then to fund the place then they're a bunch of feckless bastards

Here! Here!

 

[Telkman]

Bit of a ramble...

Bandwidth and costs have come up a few times throughout the thread. Bear in mind with the prices mentioned that the server is shared with enscape - although it's fairly idle at the moment, we have a good idea of what it's capable of when at full steam, so can work out what sort of spec is needed.

We're currently on a dedicated server at £60 p/m - whilst it was a good deal when we started it, it hasn't changed in that time, so we can easily get more for our money elsewhere.

We're currently going over our bandwidth limits each month, albeit by a fairly small amount - the bandwidth has been increasing pretty steadily since we moved ZG to the enScape server, and there doesn't seem to be any reason for it to slow.

Disabling of photos/images etc has come up, but the attachments make up quite a small fraction of the bandwidth, most people tend to host things themselves. We could feasibly strip the forum to a bare minimum, plain text, no avatars, graphics etc, but this still wouldn't make a huge impact, whilst making the site a rather less attractive place to be.

We'll be looking at about twenty times more bandwidth and a much higher specced server for the same or less money, so the bandwidth won't be such an issue.

Ultimately we've no intention of going with something that people aren't going to like - I have to admit, I thought people would prefer some non invasive advertising like the example shown, but perhaps that's not the case.

ZG gets quite a lot of guest traffic, a fairly even split between returning guests who aren't registered and guests from external sites and search engines. In addition to the donations there's always the possibility of having the google adverts shown for guests but not for registered members - if it's made clear that registering removes the adverts, I don't think it would be a huge turnoff for potential users. Any thoughts on this are much appreciated.

If we do decide to go for a donation system, we'll obviously see what people would prefer as far as incentives or credit for donation goes. We possibly run the risk of starting to get a bit of an elitist/biased attitude if it's made obvious who has donated and who hasn't. The same goes for if certain incentives are offered for donations, be it an @zerogain.com e-mail address, some webspace or something sompletely different - you're then getting far more into territory that would be considered more a subscription system rather than donations.

We don't want is to make people feel guilty or unsupportive because they don't wish to donate, but we'd need to find a balance somewhere between canvassing donations out of people and permenantly relying on a few anonymous donators who are prepared to put money into the site.

 

[Dev]

I'm sure we can get enough voluntary donations without trying too hard. Even if only a dozen members contribute that only works out at a fiver a month. That shouldn't be too hard.

If anything, it should add to the family spirit, I think.

 

[ChrisPa]

We're currently on a dedicated server at £60 p/m - whilst it was a good deal when we started it, it hasn't changed in that time, so we can easily get more for our money elsewhere.

We're currently going over our bandwidth limits each month, albeit by a fairly small amount - the bandwidth has been increasing pretty steadily since we moved ZG to the enScape server, and there doesn't seem to be any reason for it to slow.

How much bandwith now? what's the rate of increase? what are your predictions with the proposed additions? Depending on the numbers, I might be able to help.

 

[Markus S]

Good thoughts, but if this was a business proposition, I'd have a few more questions:

• What is the expected income from Google ads per member and per visitor?
• Is it possible to individualize Google ads? I.e., is it possible to show Google ads for those who prefer ZG to be free, and not show Google ads for those who prefer ZG to be ad-free and are willing to pay, say 3 or 5 quid a year for the privilege?
• What are the projected costs after switching servers, with/without the additional graphic content mentioned earlier in the thread?
• PFM charges its trade members a small amount, 50 quid a year IIRC; what's ZG's policy in this matter?
• IS said earlier that ZG is supposed to be run not-for-profit. Personally, I wouldn't mind somebody making a few quid out of this as long as the content doesn't suffer, but as the point has been raised - would the ZG finances be made available if ads are introduced?

 

[bottleneck]

so at £60 p/m for zerogain and enscape?

£30 p/m just for zerogain?

how about 30 people all setting up a DD for just £1 p/m?
or 60 people setting up a DD for 50p?

maybe we should run another poll to see how many people would be willing to set up a small DD.

DD's seem to make a lot more sense to me than ad-hoc contributions.