Dev
Moderator
I agree, that should be banned too, along with all blood sports. Killing animals for food in one thing but putting them through un-necessary pain is plain sadistic IMO.julian2002 said:
Fox Hunting, for or against?
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julian2002
Muper Soderator
they are either killed with a bolt gun or given an electric shock to 'stun' them however due to the 'conveyor belt' methods now used it often doesn't work very well.
i find it difficult to reconcile 'humane' and 'way of killing' in the same sentence anyway. you are taking somethings life end of story. the determining factor in these things comes down to pure economics (how many can we kill, how quickly ansd how cheaply) which i find far more chilling than a few toffs in silly clothes chasing after a fox whilst pissed.
oh and by the way i hope you're all in favour of the tax hike to police the hunting ban, how many rural areas have mounted police at present? all the cops round here use astra's not really suitable for clod hopping after the evil lawbreaking hunters eh?
cheers
julian.
i find it difficult to reconcile 'humane' and 'way of killing' in the same sentence anyway. you are taking somethings life end of story. the determining factor in these things comes down to pure economics (how many can we kill, how quickly ansd how cheaply) which i find far more chilling than a few toffs in silly clothes chasing after a fox whilst pissed.
oh and by the way i hope you're all in favour of the tax hike to police the hunting ban, how many rural areas have mounted police at present? all the cops round here use astra's not really suitable for clod hopping after the evil lawbreaking hunters eh?
cheers
julian.
My name is Ron
It is, it really is
Okay, in an attempt to be a bit more serious, how about an option for 'it was a ludicrous waste of parliamentary time'. There are dozens of better things MPs could have been debating, from child protection and global warming to the habitual underperformance of the English football team and the shocking state of tea served at motorway service stations.
Fox hunting is savage and seems utterly pointless to me (as does golf) but it's hardy a pressing issue, is it?
As for the class war aspect, that has definitely played its part. However, if we really want to get at the nobs ââ'¬â€œ*and not just those who like dressing up in silly outfits at the weekend ââ'¬â€œ let's get parliament to impose proper rates of tax on them and give the NHS and education system the money they so desperately need.
Tally ho!
Fox hunting is savage and seems utterly pointless to me (as does golf) but it's hardy a pressing issue, is it?
As for the class war aspect, that has definitely played its part. However, if we really want to get at the nobs ââ'¬â€œ*and not just those who like dressing up in silly outfits at the weekend ââ'¬â€œ let's get parliament to impose proper rates of tax on them and give the NHS and education system the money they so desperately need.
Tally ho!
Is the stun gun painless? When people has cardioversion which is a very small current to shock their heart out of an abnormal heart rhythm, or electroconvulsive therapy which as far as I know are both not powerful enough to kill they must be given drugs to sedate them so that they do not feel any pain and discomfort.
My family has rear chicken for food. They hunt with guns. I have only fish. I have as a child seen animals being club, neck cut and stun. They all appear painful. Farmers say some cows 'cry tears' when lined up to be slaugthered. I have not seen big animal like cow being killed so cannot confirm whether it is true.
It seems people who has a bit more exposure to farming are more realistic.
My family has rear chicken for food. They hunt with guns. I have only fish. I have as a child seen animals being club, neck cut and stun. They all appear painful. Farmers say some cows 'cry tears' when lined up to be slaugthered. I have not seen big animal like cow being killed so cannot confirm whether it is true.
It seems people who has a bit more exposure to farming are more realistic.
julian2002
Muper Soderator
i don't think the electric shock has any humane reason. it's more to stop the animal thrashing about and getting missed by whatever lethal method is used and / or to stop them damaging the machinery.
cheers
julian.
cheers
julian.
michaelab
desafinado
I don't know about Kosher food, but as a young kid in Istanbul I used to sometimes watch the guys killing sheep in the field behind our flat in the traditional muslim way:wolfgang said:
Lay the sheep down with its neck over a hole in the ground, say a prayer, then saw its head off. Took about 5 seconds or so to do the sawing. Certainly no anaesthetic but possibly more humane than some of the factory methods used. The idea was to let all the blood run out so it could be Halal meat - similar idea to Kosher AFAIK.
Michael.
penance
Arrogant Cock
Yes it is Micheal.
I had kosher when i was in Isreal, kills the taste y'know.
I had kosher when i was in Isreal, kills the taste y'know.
Not partial to it myself but see no good reason to ban it. Waste of parliaments time if you ask me - once everything else is fixed then maybe turn attention to the poor old fox and, let's be honest, if it were an ugly beast with 6 legs and covered in scales then no-one would give a shit really.
I also can't help feeling that the majority of labour MP's are simply chasing a classist goal from their student union pasts. I think they were told to vote in accordance with their concsiences - to me they should be voting in accordance with their constituents' wishes and I'm really not sure that the majority of the public are in favour of a ban - I don't think they care one way or the other.
I also wounldn't mind betting that a fair number of ban supporters happily continue to buy cheap eggs produced from battery chicken farming - the cruelty of which (hens kept all their lives in a tiny space) is surely far greater than some old lame fox getting set upon at the end of it's life.
I guess my message to the MP's is - stop interfering in everyone's bloody lives and get on with sorting out the really important issues (you bunch of tossers).
Matt.
I also can't help feeling that the majority of labour MP's are simply chasing a classist goal from their student union pasts. I think they were told to vote in accordance with their concsiences - to me they should be voting in accordance with their constituents' wishes and I'm really not sure that the majority of the public are in favour of a ban - I don't think they care one way or the other.
I also wounldn't mind betting that a fair number of ban supporters happily continue to buy cheap eggs produced from battery chicken farming - the cruelty of which (hens kept all their lives in a tiny space) is surely far greater than some old lame fox getting set upon at the end of it's life.
I guess my message to the MP's is - stop interfering in everyone's bloody lives and get on with sorting out the really important issues (you bunch of tossers).
Matt.
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If there is a problem with the fox population shoot them, don't use it as a front or dare to call it SPORT!! This is an insult to all sports, Horses with posh humps on thier backs and packs of hounds if the fox does make it home they dig it out to be ripped apart, and use it's tail as a paint brush to paint the new kids on the hunt yea very 21st century!!!- very sporting when will in be included in the Olympics
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Isnt it a bit of a diversionary tactic for blair, stating the obvious. The problem i have with this whole arguement is that people often make decisions without having seen the full picture. Who has actually been to see a fox hunt? I dont actually practice it myself but I have tagged along to a couple and they didnt even catch anything, and it seems they rarely do. Most foxes get shot by gamekeepers and farmers, as often they are considered pests. The thing that disgusts me the most is the extremest protestors, in many cases if anyone is the disgusting animal its them. I went with my family, two younger sisters included, and a bunch of people stood at the gate swearing at us, throwing stuff and calling us "child molestors" "granny bashers" I kid you not.
It is first and foremost a social event where people like to ride their horses fast get dressed up, that is true. The class thing is bullshit, i know lots of people from all so called "classes" that are involved. Many of them are low payed farmworkers or just ordionary local people, often with a passion for horses. This is especially true here in essex, where not everyone speaks like the queen.
I just think it's sad that a tradition has to end, and can't help thinking this undermines peoples choices. If people don't like it then they can ingnore it. i accept people want to stand up for their principles, but whatever happend to freedom of choice.
I go game shooting quite a lot, and enjoy it imensly. We DO EAT EVERYTHING WE SHOOT too, roast pheasant or partridge has a wonderfull flavour, especially when hung for a few days. These birds are fresh, and you know where they came from, you plcuk and draw them yourself. Surely this is a better state of affairs than the atrocious conditions poultry are kept in, battery hens etc. Can't people understand that it is the thrill of waiting for a bird, of hunting it, you dont hit every bird! Its the anticipation and feeling of satisfying the male hunter gatherer instinct as such. At least these birds have lived! there in nothing to stop them from flying away,and indeed they do. It is also a nice social time. I go shooting with both my father and grandfather. People of all ages are involved.
I think maybe we've all become a bit too soft....... The way animals are processed for supermarket food is in my opinion oftenpretty awfull, much worse than shooting.
So i hope you can see it from my and perhaps others viewpoint.......
It is first and foremost a social event where people like to ride their horses fast get dressed up, that is true. The class thing is bullshit, i know lots of people from all so called "classes" that are involved. Many of them are low payed farmworkers or just ordionary local people, often with a passion for horses. This is especially true here in essex, where not everyone speaks like the queen.
I just think it's sad that a tradition has to end, and can't help thinking this undermines peoples choices. If people don't like it then they can ingnore it. i accept people want to stand up for their principles, but whatever happend to freedom of choice.
I go game shooting quite a lot, and enjoy it imensly. We DO EAT EVERYTHING WE SHOOT too, roast pheasant or partridge has a wonderfull flavour, especially when hung for a few days. These birds are fresh, and you know where they came from, you plcuk and draw them yourself. Surely this is a better state of affairs than the atrocious conditions poultry are kept in, battery hens etc. Can't people understand that it is the thrill of waiting for a bird, of hunting it, you dont hit every bird! Its the anticipation and feeling of satisfying the male hunter gatherer instinct as such. At least these birds have lived! there in nothing to stop them from flying away,and indeed they do. It is also a nice social time. I go shooting with both my father and grandfather. People of all ages are involved.
I think maybe we've all become a bit too soft....... The way animals are processed for supermarket food is in my opinion oftenpretty awfull, much worse than shooting.
So i hope you can see it from my and perhaps others viewpoint.......
bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
Somebody asked ''why is the poll biased''?
The poll is biased because the questions are leading.
An unbiased poll might have choices like:
1) Fox Hunting should remain legal
2) Fox Hunting should be made illegal
The poll is biased because the questions are leading.
An unbiased poll might have choices like:
1) Fox Hunting should remain legal
2) Fox Hunting should be made illegal
julian2002
Muper Soderator
angi,
couldn't agree more - even though i don't ride or hunt i can aprieciate that some people want to and should be allowed given what is sanctioned by the govt in the food industry and other game hunting sports.
i would hope that this beomes one of those laws that is paid only lip service - a bit like smoking 'whacky woodbines'. yes it's illegal but the police couldn't give a toss unless you're being a prick about it and waving it under their noses. i would think that come 2006 if hunts happen on land where it's been ok'ed with the owner of that land then no one will actually worry about it. certainly the police have better things to do - like catching all those awful speeding motorists.
cheers
julian
couldn't agree more - even though i don't ride or hunt i can aprieciate that some people want to and should be allowed given what is sanctioned by the govt in the food industry and other game hunting sports.
i would hope that this beomes one of those laws that is paid only lip service - a bit like smoking 'whacky woodbines'. yes it's illegal but the police couldn't give a toss unless you're being a prick about it and waving it under their noses. i would think that come 2006 if hunts happen on land where it's been ok'ed with the owner of that land then no one will actually worry about it. certainly the police have better things to do - like catching all those awful speeding motorists.
cheers
julian
Animals rip other animals apart every day on this planet - it's the way of the world. Okay, so the fact that it's arranged may make it unappealing but many acts of animal nature appear barbaric to civilised humans.
It's the classist thing that bothers me most - the fact that we are quite happy to have a go at the upper classes because they are an easy and, for some reason, an acceptable target. If, on the other hand, fox hunting was undertaken almost exclusively by black people or by moslems would we find it as easy or as appetizing to ban or would we simply accept it as part of their culture?
Matt.
It's the classist thing that bothers me most - the fact that we are quite happy to have a go at the upper classes because they are an easy and, for some reason, an acceptable target. If, on the other hand, fox hunting was undertaken almost exclusively by black people or by moslems would we find it as easy or as appetizing to ban or would we simply accept it as part of their culture?
Matt.
michaelab
desafinado
Well, we don't accept smoking weed as part of Rastafarian culture and let them do it do we? We don't allow people from East African countries to perform female circumcision do we? I don't think there's anything particularly classist about it. If it were only Jews or Muslims that did fox hunting I don't think it would be any different - in fact it would probably have been made illegal ages ago.
Michael.
Michael.
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I don't think the classist thing is bullshit.I feel classist everytime I hear someone say "city folk don't understand the country".I just want to slap them,so I for one,am classist.My prejudice is has everything to do with class,whatever class actually means. (what it means to me is someone doing something and telling me I have no right to an opinion because I live in London,which is of course,utter bollox)
we voted Labour in with a huge majority on a manifesto to ban hunting.On a free vote the MPs carried out this manifesto pledge.This is democracy.If the hunters don't like it,they can move to North Korea.
we voted Labour in with a huge majority on a manifesto to ban hunting.On a free vote the MPs carried out this manifesto pledge.This is democracy.If the hunters don't like it,they can move to North Korea.
