Fox Hunting, for or against?

[michaelab]

There's no point trying to argue with the brainwashed . The Taleban and what they did is about as relevant to a discussion about Islam as the Ku Klux Klan is relevant to a discussion about Christianity.

Since the Taleban everyone in the West assumes that the (full face) Burqa is "standard issue" amongst muslim women. In fact, very few Muslin women wear a full face covering. In the 5 and a half years I spent living in Turkey and Iran I saw perhaps 5 women wearing a full face covering. Most wear just a headscarf and, if you've following what's going on in France, most of them want to wear it. It's got nothing to do with oppression, it's about religion and culture. Do Sikh's oppress men because they are "forced" to wear turbans? Do Jews oppress men because they are "forced" to wear a skull cap?

You can't judge everything by your Western ideas of what is normal. Many muslim women would say that the objectification of women in the West as sex objects and the culture of external physical perfection that is perpetuated by the Western media is oppressive to women. As Paul said, it can be a much more subtle thing.

Michael.

 

[7_V]

You can't judge everything by your Western ideas of what is normal. Many muslim women would say that the objectification of women in the West as sex objects and the culture of external physical perfection that is perpetuated by the Western media is oppressive to women. As Paul said, it can be a much more subtle thing.

Michael, you've made some very good points.

Re. the objectification of women in the West as sex objects though, I must admit that, in these days post the advent of feminism, I'm surprised by it. However, it has to be said that, just as many Muslim women choose the head scarf, many Western women choose to portray themselves as sex objects.

Regarding your more general points about Islam, are there not some aspects of the religion itself that leave themselves open to the charge of the oppression of women? In particular I'm thinking of the Muslim laws on divorce.

Generally, it seems to be a matter of interpretation. I feel more comfortable with the more liberal interpretations of Judaism, Christianity or Islam, which take some of the more humanistic aspects of these religions and modify some others. There are serious risks in taking any of the books (Old or New Testaments or the Koran) as the literal word of God and, my God, hasn't all of humanity paid the price for this over the last couple of thousand years?

 

[wolfgang]

It is interesting how the discussion have change.

I am looking forward to see tonight channel 4 programme. Jewish Law 8pm. The footnote on newspaper guide say it is about how Manchester's Jewish community combines biblical guidance with modern living. Tonight features the work of Kosher-food inspectors. These recent discussion makes the topic a bit more interesting the usual.

 

[Saab]

I am not brainwashed,and how do you know a) that i am western b) i am not a muslim myself? You make an some terrible assumptions then base your own bias against them.You make some good points about Sikhs and Jews etc,but that doesn't mean that the position of Muslim in islamic society is a myth perpetrated by the west,that is just a ridiculous suggestion.
Only yesterday radio 5 talked to some iraqi men about the forth coming elections,and to a man they didn't want 'their women' to vote.
The position of women in their society is religously based,it hasn't by created by the west,its a fact,and for some reason it is you who has been brain washed.
It doesn't help your cause either when the media report that an 'unfaithful' wife in Saudi will be stoned to death,only 2 yrs ago.That story wasn't made up,many human rights organisations combined to save her life.

 

[julian2002]

mo,
my argument is more that it's no more cruel (and in some cases a lot LESS cruel) than other more pertinent things that most people countenance either actively or passively. the only reason it's an 'issue' is due to some outdated class ideals (hey it cuts both ways ). i'd much rather see my taxes being spent debating things like battery farming, or animal testing or just being spent on healthcare, education and the roads.
now it will be spent on buying the local police farce's some nice new off road vehicles and for them to sit around in country lanes on a sunday whilst homes are broken into and old ladies raped - hey, at least it's a start eh?
cheers


julian

 

[michaelab]

Again, people have been led to believe that Saudi Arabia is a representative example of Islam. It isn't. The fundamentalist variant of Islam practised there is only a stone's throw (no pun intended) from the Taleban regime.

Any fundamentalist take on Islam, Christianity or Judaism will be oppressive to women. I'm less familiar with Judaism but the Cathloic Church in particular doesn't have a particularly good record where women are concerned. Catholic views on divorce are hardly "enlightened" and the Vatican stance on contraception and, in particular, abortion rights is undisputably oppressive to women.

The position of women in their society is religously based,it hasn't by created by the west

I never said it had been created by the west. I said that the western media judge everything about Islam by their own narrow minded view of what is right without any understanding of the cultural context that might put things into perspective. Regarding women's voting rights, you'd find many men in the West who wouldn't want their women to vote. It was less than 100 years ago that women were first allowed the vote in the UK, and then only from the age of 30 (compared to 21 for men). It was much more recently that women were allowed the vote in all Swiss cantons.

Michael.

 

[7_V]

... Any fundamentalist take on Islam, Christianity or Judaism will be oppressive to women. I'm less familiar with Judaism but the Cathloic Church in particular doesn't have a particularly good record where women are concerned ...

I don't think that the fundamentalist take on Judaism is particularly oppressive to women, although there are certainly clearly defined roles in the family and the church (synagogue) for men and women.

Traditionally, it's been the men who get to sit around all day debating the interpretation of the Torah (law or bible) and the meaning of life whilst women are in charge of the family. Interestingly, the reason given for this is that women are considered to be MORE advanced spiritually and, therefore, not in need of such discussion and argument. I suspect that the discussions that we have here about cables, equipment and supports are of a similar nature and, as far as I can see, we're not inundated with many female participants either. Maybe they're too involved in just listening to the music.

In any event, none of the orthodox Jewish women that I've ever spoken to have felt oppressed by the religion and, in a religion which puts such a high priority on the family, it's generally the matriarch who holds it all together. In reality, while the men are allowed to go out and earn their living in show business, or as doctors or lawyers - racial stereotype, racial stereotype - or as speaker designers, it's pretty clear which sex generally wear the trousers.

 

[michaelab]

In any event, none of the orthodox Jewish women that I've ever spoken to have felt oppressed by the religion

That's also true of all the Muslim women I've ever spoken to.

Michael.

 

[7_V]

That's also true of all the Muslim women I've ever spoken to.

I take it that you haven't spoken to any Muslim women in Afghanistan.

The Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA)

Even post Taliban ...

The Bush Administration claims to have established democracy in Afghanistan--but what can "democracy" possibly mean when more than half the population is property?

 

[michaelab]

No, as it happens I haven't been to Afghanistan lately. As I said before, it's absurd to suggest that Islam as practised by the Taleban is in any way representative of Islam in general. Even post Taleban, the attitude of the men there is hardly going to change overnight.

For an unbiased view of women's issues in Islam take a look at:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm

(which indicentally supports RAWA, the source of one of your links above).

Michael.

 

[Paul Ranson]

That's also true of all the Muslim women I've ever spoken to.

In feudal times do you think most peasants felt oppressed by their society?

Paul

 

[Saab]

Michael

some good points,but it is only you that is comparing Islam with other religions,no one else has,and its irrelevant anyway,the original point made by Paul was that the Islamic faith oppresses women.The fact that other religions may or may not oppress women is beside the point,that has not been debated.My view personally is not based on the media,its based in part from having a missionary for a father,and having had many arguements with him I have my OWN view.It certainly isn't brainwashing,but yes,its based on western culture,naturally,that is where i grew up.

Also,what is wrong with having an opinion? Its the one advantage of living in a democracy.

 

[julian2002]

saab,
you can have an opinion in a dictatorship but if you voice it it better agree with the dictators... hmm not much different to bush or blairs' 'democracies' there then.
cheers

julian

 

[7_V]

you can have an opinion in a dictatorship but if you voice it it better agree with the dictators... hmm not much different to bush or blairs' 'democracies' there then.

Don't even joke about it Julian.

Take Michael Moore as an example (Fahrenheit 9/11, etc.). In Saddam's Iraq, he, his family and his friends would have disappeared without trace. In Bush's America he's become a multi-millionnaire.

A bit of a difference, methinks.

 

[Lt Cdr Data]

alas it seems everyone has an opinion however to criticise muslims you get labelled racialist.

I agree with many of Michael's points, I really have little knowledge as to Islam, however it is hugely pertinant to bear in mind that the information we 'sheltered' westerners get is via the media, newspapers, tv's etc., and sometimes we do not know the slant they seek to give,they are FAR more manipulative than anyone understands, and if its all drilled into you day and nite, on the one hand, asylum problems, on the other, racist riots, on the third, people saying how disgusting discrimination is, what is the average person supposed to think? its a wash of confusion, on purpose I think.

so I for one do not know if islam is peaceful or less so, I have met a few and they seem nice people.Certainly our info. is mega dumbed down and we don't have the time to investigate for ourselves.

I have also seen the beheading videos, and am in serious shock, I didn't get much sleep last nite, and am highly disturbed by it. Serious understatement, I will not even look again or give the link here, as it was SO disturbing.
Seeing that, I would ban halal meat right away if I could. Its horrific, and I have seen and treated trauma medicine myself first hand( rather enjoyed the adrenaline buzz myself) so am hardened to blood and gore.
This was total vile beyond belief.

The tendancy is to tarr muslims with that.You don't hear many speaking out publicly, perhaps the mullahs could, but either you don't hear it when they do, they secretly don't mind it, or they support it, there aren't many other options.

As to women, yes the west is sexual, blantantly, and I abhor it myself, I would prefer a society where women do look after the house, and the men do the work(along with no fixed term contracts and all that) an arrogant big headed woman IMO has a insecurity problem that she needs to humiliate men to feel good.

Many women do actually enjoy being sexual, lipstick, eye makeup, high heels, nail varnish ( is it me or is it all appealing to mens inner desires to stick your cock in a nice wet lipped mouth, whilst those dark eyes look at you, and have red nails rubbing up and down it?, whilst the long legs and miniskirt draw your eyes up to....) think about it. (its all unconcious?? ,but here it is in the open)

As you can see, I am not afraid to reveal mens' innermost desires.

OTOH, the ones that do not have the beauty feel inadequate at best, which is our society, haves and have nots.

As to circumcism, I have been and I am absolutely pissed that I had no say, my most sensitive part has been cut off for no reason, chucked away, I would kill the doctor who did that, I am not a jew or muslim, or anything (slight buddha bias)
for what?

the soft moist end hardens, dries, callouses over, some people report painful erections as the skin is tight.
as it happens I am growing it back, but its a long hard slog, and it will never be the same, I have been psychologically damaged by that, and am considering legal action.
I urge all to do the same to stop this immoral act. You can't just destroy a part of someone's body without their consent. I feel sick about it. utterly.
If people want it, fine, I don't and didn't.

 

[Matt F]

As to circumcism, I have been and I am absolutely pissed that I had no say, my most sensitive part has been cut off for no reason, chucked away, I would kill the doctor who did that, I am not a jew or muslim, or anything (slight buddha bias)
for what?

the soft moist end hardens, dries, callouses over, some people report painful erections as the skin is tight.
as it happens I am growing it back, but its a long hard slog, and it will never be the same, I have been psychologically damaged by that, and am considering legal action.
I urge all to do the same to stop this immoral act. You can't just destroy a part of someone's body without their consent. I feel sick about it. utterly.
If people want it, fine, I don't and didn't.

And that would seem a pretty strong argument against circumcision without the penis-holder's consent.

Incidentally, LCD, why was yours done if not for religious reasons?

Matt.

 

[Lt Cdr Data]

god knows, it was when I was born I think, and I am looking into it. Hospitals sholdn't even offer it as a choice, its not there place to do that.
medicine is about healing what's gone wrong, not lopping something off.
ahh he only needs one kidney, one lung, take one, he can get by on the other.
...a girl needs one breast, ey up, lop t'other one off, might get cancerous in 30 yrs, come to think of it, they don't NEED them, off with the 2, she can use regular milk.

civilised fukkin society, organ mutilation...

It shouldn't be done, full stop.

 

[Saab]

circumcision is for supposed health reasons,not religous

 

[Matt F]

circumcision is for supposed health reasons,not religous

Unless, you subscribe to a religion that advocates/demands circumcision.

Matt.

 

[michaelab]

Hey, I'm really angry they cut off my umbilical cord after I was born without consulting me . Now I'm just left with an ugly looking belly button instead.



Michael.