Good stuff at Heathrow

Hey Henry,

Good write-up there, dude! I'm glad to read that you liked the Vecteur components. This is a brand that I mentioned on the "Meridian 500 transport" thread a few weeks ago and urged ZeroGainers to listen to it and report back. Nice one, dude. You would be interested to know that the L-4 also makes a superb transport in addition to it's D2.2 dedicated transport stablemate.

The valve-like sound of the system that you described cannot solely be attributed to the Maggies, the L-4 CDP was partly responsible for that as well. Considering how hotel rooms tend to suck the life and music out of decent systems, that was not a bad showing by that combo.

If you are interested in hearing a bigger pair of the Maggies, then checkout the 3.6/Rs. I heard these at the end of Audio Research pre & power amplification and fronted by the Audio Research CD3 player. The sound was simply superb. I have further heard them in different system configurations and they have not yet dissappointed. At USD 3,750.00 (make that GBP 3,750.00 ) they are comparatively reasonable for what they deliver. On enquiring further about them with the dealer, the wife butted in and remarked that they looked like room dividers and would not be suitable in our living room. Women, eh!! However, in a dedicated listening room, these would be high on my list to own perhaps mated with a very good sub (or subs). Speaking of subs, I have the superb M.J. Acoustics Reference 150 sub on order.


Magneplanar 3.6/R




Enjoy the music,

Lawrie

 

Douglas Adams used to own Maggies...

Robbo - was it the Neat Ultimatums that you had on loan? They were pretty cool, though a bit big for your gaff I reckon? Frankie's "Relax" will always sound good on a big rig due to Trevor Horn's ridiculously OTT production - pure class!

Naim's SL2s are complete crap - no bass and flamethrower treble. Horrid HORRID speakers... Did they have the CD5i on demo then out of curiosity? If so, what's different to the older CD5???

Would have liked to have gone to this, but too skint and too hungover Got to see Johnny English though - cheers Lhatkins

 

Jason/Alex,

Question for you gents please, ref the neat room.
I listened 3 times in different places including the front, with the MF5's and 9's, only with the Xs400 on never the TT, frankly it was unispiring to moi, now I like these speakers, the 7's were on the list when I was choosing speakers for the new place.
I have heard them produce a far far better sound, in a room again that was far from ideal
Now I liked the Notts analogue room twas good and fun if a coloured, but involving, far more so for moi, than the neat room also Paul D on Pink fish, thought this was the tighest bass he'd heard (neats)
Can you guys enlighten me please as to what/why you felt the neat room did so much for you?, serious question guys. Tone

 

My thoughts on the show (the first I've ever been to):

First room I went to was the Chord room to check out the new "Blu" transport. Over the day I went in there 2 or 3 times and only once was the Blu + DAC64 setup playing through the Dynaudio Confidence C2s with some big Chord amps (don't remember which) and I thought it actually sounded pretty good. The other times they had the setup playing through some small Wilson standmounts and I wasn't so impressed.

I managed to have a reasonable chat with John Franks about the transport and came away very cynical. He said it was "five time better than any other transport" and cheap at £4200. He added that if it hadn't been for some incrdible cost cutting it would have cost close to £5500 If it cost more than £1000 to make I'd be amazed. He gave me all the technical lowdown and finally (after I told him I was a DAC64 owner) said: "when the 'Blu' comes out, dem one at home and you won't take it back". Hmmm...oh yes I will I'm interested to see what it's like but there's no way I'm paying £4200 for a transport. It does look very nice though

Still related to the DAC64 I was quite impressed by the Tube Technology room. They've taken the internals of a DAC64 and mated it with a transport and a valve output stage to make an their "Fusion CD64" integrated CD player. It doesn't use the buffering of the DAC64 though but it does have an integrated transport to minimize jitter. It retails at only £1990 - the same price as a DAC64 on it's own. Unfortunately I didn't get to hear it but I heard their more expensive "Fulcrum TX24" transport (£1000) and "Fulcrum DAC64" DAC (£2500) together and was very impressed. The "Fulcrum DAC64" is again, a reboxed DAC64 with a tube output stage. Crucially though (for DAC64 buffer cynics) it has a word clock output and their Fulcrum Dx24 transport has a word clock input. Interestingly, given what Rob Watts has said about the DAC64 in the past, they were using a TOSlink connection between DAC and transport The Tube Technology "CD64" integrated is reviewed in the Sept/Oct 2003 edition of HiFi+.

Next, the room I was most impressed with. The Perigee/Sim Audio room. I went in there because I'm very interested in the Sim Audio i-5 integrated for a future amp upgrade. They were using the Sim AUdio Nova CD player into the i-5 integrated into Perigee Acoustics FK1 speakers. All hooked up with Vertex AQ cabling. The slam an dynamics of this system were fantastic and the whole thing was just very involving. Perhaps a touch bright/harsh at the top but I'd put that down to the ribbon tweeters. The guys there were claiming a lot for the very expensive cabling (about £4K worth ) but IMO it was the electronics and the speakers that were doing the most.

Many other rooms were quite impressive but they are too numerous to mention. Given my comments in previous threads about never having heard a decent vinyl setup it was good to see a lot of vinyl sources at the show and I was indeed very impressed. The Townshend Rock Reference / EAR setup probably being my favourite. Better than CD? I wouldn't say that, but certainly no worse. Faults I've heard before such as excessive warmth and wolliness just weren't there. Surface noise was also minimal and only really noticable during silent periods. I'm still not about to get a TT though

By contrast, the room with possibly the most expensive and (arguably) best digital front end there is was absolutely terrible. That was the Overkill Audio (speakers) room. I heard them being driven by a full dCS (Verdi/Purcell/Elgar Plus) front end and I can't remember the amp. The sound was muddled, congested, had no timing at all, harsh and just basically unpleasant. It was easily the worst room I heard.

Lastly, a few small things that caught my attention:
The new redesigned Meridian range looks stunning. Pity they were just running an AV demo in the hotel lobby so couldn't really make anything other than aesthetic judgements.

In the Sony room was a setup with a tiny CD "discman" portable, connected by TOSlink cable to what looked like a nice silver 5mm thick business card case. Coming out of the other end were...speaker cables which were hooked up to some Sony speakers. The sound was not bad at all. So what was that little thing about 80mm x 50mm x 5mm in size? Well, it was a digital 100wpc DAC/amplifier using the new Sony S-master technology Very, very impressive.

Had a quick look around the WBT stand and saw something interesting. What's this? A brand new "revolutionary" RCA plug which WBT are calling "nextgen". It has a plastic body with a small pin earth/return connection instead of the usual full wraparound. Hmmm....I think I've seen that before somewhere....Bullet plugs anyone? I only hope that Eichmann made their patents watertight and that WBT are not just ripping off their idea. So much for WBTs being better than Bullets :devil:

Oh, nearly forgot: good to meet Steve (7_V), Henry (HenryT), Dean (SCIDB) and Julian (julian2002) for the first time and good to see Tony (wadia-miester), Tim (timpy), Neil (Robbo), Lee (lilolee) and Graham (GrahamN) again.

Michael.

 

WadiaMeister,

To me the Neat played music, anything I threw at them from Scheherazade to The Egg. I'm very sensitive to bass boom and any there was was in the room not the speakers. The Densen is very even handed - music again, not audio fireworks. I have heard the Neats sound a tad uninvolving and I've also heard disjointed bass from them on occasion. Nontheless, I've heard them enough to know that when they're got right they're superb. Also, the amps they were using were very good for the money.

It is also worth pondering just how bad a sound might be produced by a 2.5K CDP and 5K's worth of amps fronting a 10K speaker.

Nonetheless, I admit my experience of the Neat room may have benefited from having been next door first.

Alex

 

Hi


Good to see all the usual gang on Sunday. Good to meet Michaelab & Steve (7V). An interesting day. It took 2 hours to drive down & 4 hours to get back.

I have to agree that the sound quality in some of the rooms left a lot to be desired but that's Hifi shows for you. Lots of stuff to look at including a fair few turntables & a fair bit opf valve kit.

I too like the 47labs room which was good to listen to. Nice detail, tone & musical flow. Not the deepest bass from the wired looking single driver speakers but I think this helped with the overall sound. It didn't suffer from boomy/bloated/slow/uneven bass.

I like the Nottingham Analogue room with the Shahinians speakers. Good overall sound quality & enjoyment.

I like the sound in the Alon room. Nice looking stuff.

The Sim items with the Perigee speakers showed potential. I do think that a better amp & cd were need to show off more of ite's potential. I found the top end could improve with detail & resolution.

The Rogue/Amplion room wasn't as good as last year IMO. Not sure about that big amp. It would be interesting to try the speakers with a different amp.

The Naim room with the new speakers & nait was all right. The bass did boom a bit but it was overall good to listen to.

The Neat room was good fun. A good selection of music. The sound was alright with plenty of life. A bit like a PA system. I can see what people like about them.

The Chord room were showing the new transport. Nice looking thing. Not sure about the transport mechanism using springs. It slams shut. Couldn't tell much about it sonically so I'll leave judgement until I get to heard on in my own system. Sound better with the Dyaaudio speakers than with the Wilson Benesch speakers. It's a bit dear as well (£4200 I think).

The Zingali stuff had promise. I would like to hear them with different stuff than the Bow items.

Didn't get into the Overkill room. I would have liked to hear that stuff. Maybe next time.

The Ferguson Hill horns were weird looking items. I have heard better horns.

Tube technology had some fine looking items on show. They had their version of the Dac64 @ £2500. Not bad

Icon audio had a range of good looking amps but didn't sound to clever. Bloated bass problems & non too nimble sound.

GT Audio had interesting looking items as always. The Avantgarde horns had nice qualities about them. They seemed to comunicate well but had noticable levels of colouration which will put some people off.


I didn't scare many people with my music this year. Only Jimmy Smith & his Hammond organ came out to play. Too much Norah Jones. Some manufactuers & agents need to get some music bought.

Quite a good day out.

SCIDB

 

Henry,

Magnaplanars

Last pair I had was best part of twenty years ago, little SMGa's (Lilolee has recently had a pair too). Verdict on the bigger ones is that they do their party trick really well. This is wonderful midrange and openess. They are not all rounders though, most users in the States end up with a sub or two

The Verity will be bloody difficult to match in the midrange IMHO, a problem I had when coming from 'stats. The VSM's did it, but nothing else I heard was even close. I think very few dynamic speakers can offer the openess and speed of a panel in the mids,although Neil's 1sc's manage it with AR horsepower.

At the show, I'd say the Alons and the Avalons showed promise, but the only thing the show really does is demonstrate the wildly different requirements of us the consumers.

 

I couldn't agree more. On many occasions I walked into a room only to hear Norah Jones being played and walked straight out again. I like the album but for the love of God couldn't they use something with a bit more excitement?

Michael.

 

Shame I couldnt make it this weekend.

Dean - looks like you and I got stuck in the same traffic jam coming out of London and back onto the M1 on Sunday. I never did discover why I spent 2 hours doing 10 miles an hour... glad I dont have to deal with this on a daily basis, Id do my nut.

What did GT audio have with the avantguardes? Was he showing his Tron amps and a platine verdier? I really like the sound of this setup in the right environment. It seems to do something altogether different and new.

Last year was at the renaissance too. Icon were one of the best sounding. I guess so much depends on room choice and acoustics..

That Rogue amp looks like it could drive a truck, nevermind a speaker.

The tiny sony amp makes me think perhaps digital amp technology might become the future choice for the portable music/active computer speaker type of compact market. I like the idea of tiny amps driving a pair of mini monitors actively.

Shame about Norah. I really dont think she's that great anyway. She seems to sound a bit like marilyn monroe singing ''happy birthday to you mr president'' or whatever it was.


NB This bloody pre-amps instruction construction manual is PANTS. Anyone got a phone number for DIY hifisupply? getting answers to my questions on the audioasylum forum is doing my nut in with its slowness... (sorry about thread hijack)

Chris

 

Tone,

The Neat room, unlike so many others played music with decent resolution, good bass extension, low boom, and very good sweet treble, whole lot was low distortion. But that wasn't what made the Neat room the best for me. The system did all of the above while creating the illusion of real musicians playing off of each other with realistic timing across the whole frequency range. The emotion of the music is propelled out of the speakers, you "feel" the emotion player or vocalists is tryingh to catch or portray with the music. or me this needs systems like the Neat guys were playing. So with Fiona Apple on the CD player the anger in her voice over the instrumentation sets you on edge, the mood builds across the song. All of this keeps me listening and connects me to the performer. Most of the systems I heard at Heathrow did the opposite. They seemed to push me away. They serparated the strands so that there wasn't any connection left between them, no dramatic tension.

Fwiw the record player was way better than the CD player BUT the CD player did sound music like to us.

Cheers

Jason

 

dom,
the cd5 i will cost about 750 ukp and is non upgradeable with a *cap. the transport is different to the one used in the cd5 and a lot of the control circuitry is contained on a surface mounted device board within the swing arm. the output stage is all new using different components to the cd5 too.
the nait 5i / cd5i combination sounded pretty good and although the arriva (speakers) as has been mentioned were a bit over enthusiastic in the bass the mid and trebble showed promise.

to my mind if you can find a decent year old cd5 for the same price as a new cd5i then go for the 2nd hand choice as adding a hi-cap makes a not subtle difference and the naked cd5 probably has the legs on a cd5i anyway. still a lot of people want to buy brand new and this is for them.

cheers

julian

 

Jason/Alex, thanks for answers, It helps me gauge what various indivduals 'see' in a demo, and what makes it 'Right or wrong' for them cheers
Interestingly 5 of us sat in on the Overkill demo, (DCS playing), and afterwards I asked the guys what they felt INDIVDUALY about it, this was the replies

Timpy<>Teeth drillingly hard, had a 'whincing effect' on entry (his words) and bass/room interactions
Henry<>Mixed bag as posted
Mike B<>Bored shiteless and totaly unimpressed
Me<>I was off axis for a while, very muddled, bass issues again, didn't communicate at all, open sound, clean, lacking involvment and impotius, sterile is a good adjective. However we didn't listen with the souls' although on friday, 3 of the Z/G's were in and made a similar comment.
So all things to all people, one mans meat etc.
Might just help us understand where the other is comming from Tone

 

WM,

I think its worth saying again that the Overkill with TE and the VPI was something entirely different, on classical anyway. With the CDP is sounded broken, truly awful, but even then it didn't suffer from the usual highenditiis - that insufferable treacly, lush, am I listening at the bottom of a deep ocean sound with no music whatsoever that really expensive kit so often sounds like.

Alex

 

Alex, You may well be right sir For me If I was paying £15K for a set of speakers, they have got to do it all, not just the 'proper music', My brother has a riddiculious money pair of speakers, with 'Proper amps', and it still don't play music, so I agree completely on that score.
Timpy and myself were discussing this on the return journey (inbetween ducking from the front seat as people were lauging at the 820 rover as they passed us )
It's like owning 2 cars, one special one, that is great, but you don't want to leave it here, or take it there, for fear of being damaged or stolen, or getting dirt on it of crisps crmbs on the seat , and the old banger and hack which doe all the work and costs nothing, while the sepcial one comes out now and again and cost a bloody fortune, why?
A system should be able to play it all, (scale and volume aside).
Interestly Derek I think was running Valhalla spaker cable any one else notice???? WM

 

Er yes it did Alex

I guess I came into the room after the vinyl demo. It was clear that Alex had just been impressed by something, but I was unsure whether this was due to the system or Derek baring his bottom when discussing the marketing campaign

One question though. If the vinyl was so much better, why did the designer spend the whole weekend using CD, as most other visitors can testify

But I can confirm that Alex and Jason were clearly impressed by something that I missed. When I listened, I honestly found them to be the most unmusical transducers I have heard in many a year.

 

Merlin,

I think I can answer that one: some huge American bloke who looked rather important had been the room, presumably had heard the CD player, and immediately insisted that they get a TT, which they did by borrowing the VPI from next door. Really. I guess they had to give it back.

Alex

BTW It was very nice to be offered a glass of wine although some of the gloss was removed when it turned out to be warm rose in a plastic cup.

 

Merlin,

You missed a really good dem with the turntable. It did everything serious HiFi should do. I have heard enough big systems to rate that dem very highly.


>>>One question though. If the vinyl was so much better, why did the designer spend the whole weekend using CD, as most other visitors can testify

The turntable was borrowed from the room next door, as was the vinyl played on it. The reason? I think big Scott Markwell wanted to hear vinyl through the speakers. The designer of the speakers doesn't use a turntable at all. I think he was mad not to turn the CD player off and play borrowed vinyl all weekend!

btw. To reaffirm my opinion in our brief discussion; a VPi is a definite contender for you.


Tone,

Its amazing that although we hear things totally differently almost everyone disliked the Overkills with the CD player! Was it broken?


Cheers

Jason

 

Jason, agree on the above 100% although I have to say, DCS dosn't do the things I like, I have heard many a similar set up Verdi/Elgar/Purcell and was some what 'greater in stauture' than what we listened to inside the Overkill room at the week end.
Tone

 

Sorry about the temporary disappearance of this thread Due to the database gremlins I'm afraid

Michael.

 

thanks for that Jason.

I do hope it was simply a case of the dCS gear being hampered in some way. My old Delius had considerably more life than that rig. It's kind of strange as Derek has designed the speakers using digital sources, and has plans for incorporating DSP generated crossovers and room correction ala TacT. So it's bizarre that the things excelled only when fed with an analogue source