Good stuff at Heathrow

[Robbo]

Robbo - was it the Neat Ultimatums that you had on loan? They were pretty cool, though a bit big for your gaff I reckon? Frankie's "Relax" will always sound good on a big rig due to Trevor Horn's ridiculously OTT production - pure class!

Hi Dom,

Yes I had the MF7s at home. They are fantastic speakers apart from the fact that the bass was overwhelming in my room and sorry to all the FE boys, it is not that fast either. I reckon the deep notes lag around 1/4 to 1/2 a beat behind the rest of the music and there is a kind of detached thumpy quality to the bass.

I am thinking about the standmounters but at the dealer dem I had, they exibited the same odd bass. It is such a shame as they do everything else really well.

Also, yesterday they were sounding pretty ordinary IMO, We got far better music out of them with my dpa front end and Tony's Belcanto.

BTW, next time you are over in the Bracknell area, come over for a listen. The system really is rocking now with my new amp and the proacs.

Cheers, Robbo

 

[HenryT]

Cookie - Re Maggies on Ebay... Interesting. might keep a watch on those. If they remain cheap than maybe I could hire out some transport to get them back home. Although me not be able to drive is a bit of an issue.

Lawrie - Don't rememebr you mentioning Vecteur before, but glad I get to hear some of their kit. Might consider as second system material.

Anopax (Reg) - I'll defiinitely include the Quad 989 on my future audition/to listen list. I've steered clear of panel/stat based speakers before, as I've always assumed that they couldn't handle gob loads of power/volume being thrown at them. I've been around in the same rooms as GrahamN on a number of occassions, and the levels he plays back at haven't really raised my eyebrows that much. I like to have a bit of blast myself on occassion, so that's the only real issue. The other is, will I find myself needing a sub? I'd hope any future replacements speakers wouldn't warrant the use of a sub.

Dom - The Neats I heard at the show were the big top of the range ones. The ones you heard at Robbos were the next ones down I believe - these are the ones I'd be more likely to want to investigate. I sat half way towards the front and then took a front row seat and had no problems with the bass integration. Being sat in the row row gave the most coherent/best timed bass though. The other Zerogainers weren't in the room at the same time as I was so a like for like comparison can't really be made.

We were only together in the same room for the Overkill Ovations and Perigees, oh and Proac.

 

[Robbo]

Henry,

The MF7s might work well in your room as the bass tends to get lost somewhat compared to mine. Definately worth a home dem.

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by HenryT
I've steered clear of panel/stat based speakers before, as I've always assumed that they couldn't handle gob loads of power/volume being thrown at them.

Henry, you won't have heard the Martin Logan Prodigies then
Hearing those, on the end of big monoblocks can be quite astonishing, I'm sure CJ Whitehouse would agree. Sadly I've never heard a full range panel that does the volume bit, although I never heard a big Apogee.

 

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by merlin
I never heard a big Apogee.

Trust me boys you should, I would OWN this Panel period Having heard it with the B/C, 79 DB Sensitivity and down to a 1 ohm load on occations, stunning is word that comes to mind, However I'm accounted for Blue Heron 2's WM

 

[HenryT]

Robbo - How did you think the MF7's compared in the mids in your system compared to your Proacs when you had been around for comparison?

Merlin - Logan's are all hybrids aren't they i.e. panel supplemented with cone bass driver? How well do the bass cones integrate with the panels in your experience? I did hear a Logan once (can't remember which one - about £10k I think it cost) at an Absolute Sound's room at a hi-fi show once but the exposure was brief and very meaningless - they were in a basement and there were several air con units all blasting away making a hell of a racket - oh and driven by Krell electronics which made them sound as rough as hell.

Tone - Apogee, know nothing about them, but save to say that the "big" Apogee are astranomical in price which is why you haven't gone for one right?? My GamuT shuts off with loads dipping below 1.5ohn so certainly wouldn't cope even if I could afford a pair of them. 79dB sensitivity is going to require some serious watts to get some decent volume though.

 

[wadia-miester]

Henry, the scintilla's ? arn't a new speaker, been a round for a few years, heard a pair down in Bristol, chap had them for sale about £1600 I believe at the time, If I'd have had the space, I'd had them, JC runs the duetto's or used too.
The neats MF7's big bass, may help your lack of it, but it's insn't a particulary fast speaker and, to be honest bass was pretty wayward too, although they do have some cracking qualities. and nice build as well, but as we said before , for £8k it's got to be spot on, or look else ware , thats just my view WM

 

[Robbo]

Robbo - How did you think the MF7's compared in the mids in your system compared to your Proacs when you had been around for comparison?

Henry,

With the dpas the MF7s midrange was pretty similar to the proacs. Cant tell what they would be like with the AR, but they would have a bloody hard time equalling the openness in the midrange that I get with the proac+AR combo. The treble on the MF7s is better than the proacs no quibble. In fact they have some of the best treble I have heard.

 

[Paul Ranson]

Panel speakers are a bundle of compromises, but I think probably worth it in the end...

Fundamentally bass is limited by panel size, adding in a cone woofer is a possibility but it seems to defeat the object. So to do the rumbly stuff a panel is going to be huge. And require a huge room. FWIW I'm happy without the rumbly stuff.

So once we've agreed to compromise bass extension the treble becomes an issue. A big panel beams, this is due to the wavelength of the sound approaching the dimension of the panel, if you move your head the treble starts arriving out of phase from one side of the panel wrt the other, result cancellation and no treble. The only solution is a multi-way speaker, even then a tall thin panel tweeter will have a limited range of acceptable listener's ear heights. Not good for those who listen lying on the floor.

Electrostatics require transformers, suffer limited output, can be susceptible to the weather, have internal voltages that can kill, ribbons, if not transformer coupled have infernal impedances and require specialised amps, they also are intrinsically non-linear unless magnets can be positioned front and back of the ribbon, where they obviously obstruct the sound.

IMO the most elegant practical solution is the Quad ESL63/988/989. Perhaps unfortunately they're not tweaky enough for the common audiophile, but worth investigation regardless. No sweet spot, enough bass, loud enough. Worth a look, especially second hand. Even new they're very cheap in comparative terms.

(I have a pair of ESL63 I bought cheaply and then repaired. I started off intrigued by the concept and the idea of an electrostatic speaker, I've decided that I rather like them. The problem would be domestic acceptability.)

Paul

 

[HenryT]

Originally posted by wadia-miester
the scintilla's

Just found out some info about them. They're not the biggest Apogee, but they're second from top:

http://www.apogeespeakers.totalserve.co.uk/scintilla.htm

110dB at 4m seems loud enough! Still, they're going to be a real b*st*rd to drive!

Originally posted by Robbo
With the dpas the MF7s midrange was pretty similar to the proacs.

That's a good enough basis for a shortlist for me then.

Originally posted by Paul Ranson
Panel speakers are a bundle of compromises, but I think probably worth it in the end...

Surely that can be said of all current speaker technologies?

Domestic acceptability is not an issue for me, luckily, I get to choose whatever take my fancy. Although heightwise I'd probably go no larger than about 6ft for a panel and no more than 4ff-5ft for a box speaker depending on depth.

Thanks for the info.

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by HenryT
Just found out some info about them. They're not the biggest Apogee, but they're second from top:

http://www.apogeespeakers.totalserve.co.uk/scintilla.htm

110dB at 4m seems loud enough! Still, they're going to be a real b*st*rd to drive!

The understatement of the century there Henry The Scintilla was THE reason that Krell came to prominence, given that the original KSA100 was the only amp on the planet that could drive them properly

The story is different today of course, the Sim W10 can put 3kw per channel out into a 1ohm load no sweat, WM says BC do OK too. S/H Apogees typically go for a song these days, the ribbons are not known for their reliability Fortunately those nice guys at Perigee offer replacements and, word has it that they will be offering their own version of the Scintilla soon

I did hear the Calipers many moons ago and found the bottom end lacking. The Duetta Sig and the Scintilla (alond with the Diva) were supposed to be far better in this department, although controlling a five foot ribbon bass unit was apparently a bit of a challenge

With regards to the Logans, just listen to Prodigies or Odyssies. It's next to impossible to hear where the transition is, due to the clever Force Forward bass alignment which effectively changes the radiation pattern of the bass to more closely match the panel. And the use of a cone bass driver gives ML's the sort of dynamic capability that Quad owners can only dream of For outright purity on small scale music I would go with Quad if pushed. But for all round music making, Logans nail em for me.

And do remember that panels drive a room differently to a dynamic speaker (hence the Apogee claim) They drop off less with distance. My Logans used to sound about the same volume even with my ear next to the panel

 

[Paul Ranson]

Surely that can be said of all current speaker technologies?

I didn't put that very well...

A panel is such an obviously good solution, compromised by reality. A cone is a bad solution, with compromises to make it perform adequately. About the only naturally good things about cones and cabinets are loudness capability and bass of a probably wobbly nature.

Paul

 

[ANOpax]

Ahem,

And the use of a cone bass driver gives ML's the sort of dynamic capability that Quad owners can only dream of

If by dynamic, you mean loud, then yes, you're welcome to your cones. (and bear in mind that Quads go plenty loud already. You only need cones if you want ear damaging spls)

If by dynamic, you mean transient speed and the ability to track a waveform, then the Quads are peerless and no cone will ever come close. Remember, Quads are so dynamic that they are able to accurately reproduce a square wave. Stick that in yer cone and see what happens

reg

 

[HenryT]

My definition of dynamic is as in "dynamic swings", as found in say large scale orchestral music, able to handle a full on and very sudden crescendo or timpani drums played back at realistc levels without damage to the drive units - I'd guess about 105dB peak at 1m at a complete guess but not necessarily sustained. If that's possible then I'd definitely be putting them on my shortlist.

 

[ANOpax]

I'd guess about 105dB peak at 1m at a complete guess but not necessarily sustained

Hmmm. I haven't got an spl meter. I do know, however, that my amp (weedy little 60 wpc integrated that it is) gives up before the speakers do. Also, I find myself listening louder and louder without realising it. It's because the speakers are free of distortion at high volume levels. AFAIK, one of the ways the human ear rejects louder volumes is related to the distortion of the signal which is why lo-fi systems sound unbearably loud at spls which wouldn't trouble a high end system. The sound produced by the ESLs is so distortion free (no cone breakup, cabinet resonances or phase issues) that they often sound subjectively quiet when, in fact, they're putting out a prodigious amount of energy.


reg

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by ANOpax
The sound produced by the ESLs is so distortion free (no cone breakup, cabinet resonances or phase issues) that they often sound subjectively quiet when, in fact, they're putting out a prodigious amount of energy.
reg

That's just the problem for me with full range ESL's. Sound great on acoustic music, but don't have the pounding impact that a good dynamic speaker offers. IMO you need this to recreate many modern forms of music, such as dance and ambient dub. I suppose these types of music are effectively designed with cones in mind, so it's no surprise.

IMO the latest generation of Logans get bloody close to the ideal, although I'd still take a good cone speaker for raw rock anyday. Quads are certainly peerless with certain forms of music, but IME fail miserably with others

 

[HenryT]

Originally posted by ANOpax
Hmmm. I haven't got an spl meter. I do know, however, that my amp (weedy little 60 wpc integrated that it is) gives up before the speakers do. Also, I find myself listening louder and louder without realising it. It's because the speakers are free of distortion at high volume levels. AFAIK, one of the ways the human ear rejects louder volumes is related to the distortion of the signal which is why lo-fi systems sound unbearably loud at spls which wouldn't trouble a high end system. The sound produced by the ESLs is so distortion free (no cone breakup, cabinet resonances or phase issues) that they often sound subjectively quiet when, in fact, they're putting out a prodigious amount of energy.

I know where you're coming from reg. I reckon I've lived with a number of distortion free set-ups, especially speakers to know how loud they are playing. Each time I do an upgrade which cleans up the signal, I have a tendency to wind the wick up that little bit more. Not because it sounds quieter, but because I can and it doesn't make me wince to do so.

Originally posted by merlin
That's just the problem for me with full range ESL's. Sound great on acoustic music, but don't have the pounding impact that a good dynamic speaker offers. IMO you need this to recreate many modern forms of music, such as dance and ambient dub. I suppose these types of music are effectively designed with cones in mind, so it's no surprise.

IMO the latest generation of Logans get bloody close to the ideal, although I'd still take a good cone speaker for raw rock anyday. Quads are certainly peerless with certain forms of music, but IME fail miserably with others

That's exactly my worry Merl. Having never lived with a panel/stat I wouldn't know if I would miss the things I take for granted with cones.

Think I'll start up another thread as I'd be interested in hearing from people who've lived with these things, of which I know there are a few on here.

 

[defiant]

Originally posted by Robbo
Micheal,

What about the Proacs? Any good?

Cheers, Neil

I haven't read the whole of this but they sounded a little heavy in the mid-range for my liking - Warm basically.

Perhaps it was the tube amps that were powering them??

Ben

 

[Robbo]

Proac always do engineer a little warmth into their speakers IME. werent they using them with the Sugden masterclass kit?

I only heard the D80s and D100s when I was there. I am more interested in the D25s as possible replacements for my ageing 1SCs

Cheers, Robbo

 

[GrahamN]

Originally posted by merlin
It's one of the biggest and most impressive displays there, with new launches for the D25, D38 and the awesome D100. When we were there, they were playing some bombastic Graham N style melee through the D38's which sounded good. But given the size of the room, I reckon the D100's will be the ones to really sing

With a challenge like that I of course had to head there! Have to say it was one of the few rooms with stuff I liked. Took along "The Planets", for Mars to shake a filling or two. Tried on the D38s and was rather unimpressed - rather a nasty top I thought. Tried on the D100s though and a completely different story . Even did a fair job on a Beethoven string quartet. Shame they're about 10' tall and £$$$$$.

Those Sugden Masterclass are SS class A aren't they - forgot to check if they were the 160W monoblocks (although they did look like them).

Still prefer what I've got at home though.

Otherwise it was disappointments pretty much all round. Biggest surprise was the Avid Diva/SME309/Lavardin IT/Meadowlark Kestrel. A setup like that should sound wonderful - but again the 2-8kHz range sounded really distorted and gritty. Must have been the Chord phono stage they had in there! After hearing a good Totem demo last year went in again, as the P9 is something I'm told I should be thinking about . Maybe it was the tiddly floorstanders they were using, but even with some small-scale chamber (Brahms Clarinet Quintet) I thought it sounded awful - thin, tinny ugh!!

Also was a bit disappointed by the Steinhart. Really far too warm - turning most of Mahler 1 (no, not mine, he was playing it when I walked in. Wouldn't give that Haitink recording house-room anyway) into a featureless mush! Bit better on solo piano.

Had to leave the room quickly at the end to avoid corpsing - the guy who'd been joining in with us on an erudite conversation about interpreters of Chopin then asked for a request.....Norah Jones!!!! :ffrc: :ffrc:

I did seem to have a bad effect on equipment. In the big SACD demo, the Linn universal player - failed to read the (Boh. Rhap.) disc! When they did eventually get it going is was a rather gimicky mix and I got mostly the side, but the overall effect was pretty fun. Then in the UKD room, the Plinius pre-amp went into permanent mute - so after much fiddling the guy had to switch to the Unison Research pre. Shame about the system though - Plinius 80W valve/class-A FET hybrids should have been nice, but system had a cutting edge that seemed to be mainly good for studio monitoring. I suspect those huge Triangle stacks (even higher than the D100s) were to fault - had a very similar top-end balance to the 1K Triangles (Celius?) I heard 18 months ago.