wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Oh er......td12's hummm I'll pass
Heathrow Show
- Thread starter wadia-miester
- Start date
Hmm
A very interesting thread for someone on the other side of the world who has not had the priviledge/opportunity of attending an 'international' HiFi show.
We have them here, but not international, and not really high-end - more something 'tacked' on to a Home Ideas, or Home furniture show etc.
Two alarming thoughts. Most of you comment on the overall poor sounds to be heard. Certainly outweighing the 'good' stuff by the read I've just had. And yet, it's not attributed to the acoustics, as someone points out that exhibitors would face acoustic 'problems' just as one does in the real world at home.
Given the princes ransom some of this kit costs, it strikes me as either the cost is ludicrous, or a case of the emporers new clothes. No wonder so called 'high-end' gear seems to be more and more becomming an anal retentives obssesive hobby, re listening to gear, rather than the music that's being played upon it, that is perhaps turning off the 'younger' crowd.
Certainly the 'younger' crowd that I know, are still interested in music, but obsessing about the finer points of sound presentation by horrendously expensive gear, doesn't seem to enter the picture.
Which is not to say that they're not interested in either quality or performance. My 'younger' friends are busy going to gym, studying, growing there careers, following their various hobbies and interests (sport, photography, cars, computing, fashion etc - the usual stuff) of which music is a part. Most will own the likes of portable Mp3 players or iPods, plus computer music, plus car system, plus home system - usually a high perceived quality (build, engineering, finish, ergonomics/ease of use/feel of controls, remote control etc and sound quality) usually doing duty for both AV & music, both 2 and multi-channel.
This for most, means one of the better, or top mainstream manufacturers 'high-end'/flagship or perhaps midrange products - usually an AV receiver/amp.
Most do not see the need for better, as the equipment from the top-end of mainstream manufacturers is good enough these days to provide an awful lot of satisfaction, and if the comments from my read here are anything to go by, why should they?
After all, if a high quality mainstream unit provides/meets your needs, re sound, ease of use, looks, reliability, after sales service and current formats etc, why spend many thousands more to get an arguable 'minor' difference? I mean, you guys are almost to a man/woman/other reporting that all this hi-end stuff sounded mediocre at best.
My thoughts are that inevitably one usually gets what one pays for, BUT that with most of this Hi-end kit, the law of diminishing returns is hitting you so hard, most think twice and three times before 'investing' if that could be a descriptive term in something that could be 'obsolete' (notwithstanding speakers) or perhaps more relevant, out of business before your warranty runs out.
It's a sad state of affairs, but IMHO, whilst the high-end 2 channel community seeks to go further and further up-market, just like the Swiss watch manufacturers did when the Japanese came along with their cheap, reliable and quality watches, they will drive themselves more and more into an exclusive high-end mega expensive niche (like Rolex) that only the very well heeled, or the very obssesive can afford.
Maybe the 'younger' crowd see things that 'we' don't and have a better handle on 'reality'!
As a personal example, I have a mid-range Naim 2 channel system. Personally, I really love it, and it comes at the 'end'? of a long road over many years of daliance with various systems and philosophies of sound, however my approach has always been from the point of view of being a musician, and more interested in the music than the kit - albeit I can be a gear head at times. It's sure as hell not perfect, and there are other philosophies that I like as much, electrostatics, or horns for eg; but for an overall balance of virtues and vices, I have found satsifaction with it that so far I haven't found elsewhere re musical reproduction. So whilst there are equally good alternatives to Naim around, I'm happy to stick with it, and have no plans or thoughts of change.
On the other hand, from some of my earlier posts, you may know that on the quest to integrate AV/HT with my 2 channel setup, I investigated numerous options, including of course the most obvious being the AV2/175 combo. I have now heard the AV2 a couple of times, and feel that for a Naim system it is pretty much the most appropriate choice re integrating AV/HT into a 2 channel system.
However, I ended up going with a Sony ES top-of-the-line flagship AV pre-power, the TAE/TAN, now discontinued. After 18mnths use, the poweramp started to give problems, which culminated in Sony replacing the complete pre-power combo with the latest flaghip, the AV integrated all digital amplifier, the TADA9000ES.
I am running this in 'hybrid' mode with my 2 channel system as before, but have plans to at least separate it out for evaluation in isolation from the Naim at home. My main reason for going the Sony route in the first place was the sheer cost of getting into AV/HT with the Naim processor and add-on amp, and some misgivings about the presentation re soundfield size etc.
Without so far doing an exact AB, I think I'm quite confident that the AV2 would still edge the TADA9000ES in absolute terms, mainly in richness, warmth and detail in dialogue, and in transient attack, but we're really talking very minor differences indeed. BUT, the difference in price is not only huge, it's disgustingly huge!
I could almost buy a new Honda Jazz for the cost of the AV2/175 & a 150 (to do 7.1). People comment about how their system costs near that of a car, but three components????!!!!!
So, I'm a Naim fan, but I love my Sony ES gear as well - both in terms of value for money, but in outright terms, it is very, very good indeed.
If you can look past the high-end/obssesive/anal-retentive point of view that it is 'only' a 'Sony' or vis-a-vis it doesn't have the requiste 'badge' to be truly high-end, the build, finish, engineering, ergonomics, feel, pride of ownership, AND the sound put it in high-end territory, at a price most mere mortals can afford.
Yes, I like the Bugattis, Ferraris, Lamborghinis and Bentleys of this world, but I'd opinion unless you have the requiste 'readies' one could be enormously happy with something from the stables of BMW or Mercedes perhaps. The difference is nowhere near as great as the reputation/mythology/marketing would have you believe.
Anyway, just some thoughts, opinions, and as always, my 2 cents worth.
Best Regards
Cheers
John...
:MILD:
A very interesting thread for someone on the other side of the world who has not had the priviledge/opportunity of attending an 'international' HiFi show.
We have them here, but not international, and not really high-end - more something 'tacked' on to a Home Ideas, or Home furniture show etc.
Two alarming thoughts. Most of you comment on the overall poor sounds to be heard. Certainly outweighing the 'good' stuff by the read I've just had. And yet, it's not attributed to the acoustics, as someone points out that exhibitors would face acoustic 'problems' just as one does in the real world at home.
Given the princes ransom some of this kit costs, it strikes me as either the cost is ludicrous, or a case of the emporers new clothes. No wonder so called 'high-end' gear seems to be more and more becomming an anal retentives obssesive hobby, re listening to gear, rather than the music that's being played upon it, that is perhaps turning off the 'younger' crowd.
Certainly the 'younger' crowd that I know, are still interested in music, but obsessing about the finer points of sound presentation by horrendously expensive gear, doesn't seem to enter the picture.
Which is not to say that they're not interested in either quality or performance. My 'younger' friends are busy going to gym, studying, growing there careers, following their various hobbies and interests (sport, photography, cars, computing, fashion etc - the usual stuff) of which music is a part. Most will own the likes of portable Mp3 players or iPods, plus computer music, plus car system, plus home system - usually a high perceived quality (build, engineering, finish, ergonomics/ease of use/feel of controls, remote control etc and sound quality) usually doing duty for both AV & music, both 2 and multi-channel.
This for most, means one of the better, or top mainstream manufacturers 'high-end'/flagship or perhaps midrange products - usually an AV receiver/amp.
Most do not see the need for better, as the equipment from the top-end of mainstream manufacturers is good enough these days to provide an awful lot of satisfaction, and if the comments from my read here are anything to go by, why should they?
After all, if a high quality mainstream unit provides/meets your needs, re sound, ease of use, looks, reliability, after sales service and current formats etc, why spend many thousands more to get an arguable 'minor' difference? I mean, you guys are almost to a man/woman/other reporting that all this hi-end stuff sounded mediocre at best.
My thoughts are that inevitably one usually gets what one pays for, BUT that with most of this Hi-end kit, the law of diminishing returns is hitting you so hard, most think twice and three times before 'investing' if that could be a descriptive term in something that could be 'obsolete' (notwithstanding speakers) or perhaps more relevant, out of business before your warranty runs out.
It's a sad state of affairs, but IMHO, whilst the high-end 2 channel community seeks to go further and further up-market, just like the Swiss watch manufacturers did when the Japanese came along with their cheap, reliable and quality watches, they will drive themselves more and more into an exclusive high-end mega expensive niche (like Rolex) that only the very well heeled, or the very obssesive can afford.
Maybe the 'younger' crowd see things that 'we' don't and have a better handle on 'reality'!
As a personal example, I have a mid-range Naim 2 channel system. Personally, I really love it, and it comes at the 'end'? of a long road over many years of daliance with various systems and philosophies of sound, however my approach has always been from the point of view of being a musician, and more interested in the music than the kit - albeit I can be a gear head at times. It's sure as hell not perfect, and there are other philosophies that I like as much, electrostatics, or horns for eg; but for an overall balance of virtues and vices, I have found satsifaction with it that so far I haven't found elsewhere re musical reproduction. So whilst there are equally good alternatives to Naim around, I'm happy to stick with it, and have no plans or thoughts of change.
On the other hand, from some of my earlier posts, you may know that on the quest to integrate AV/HT with my 2 channel setup, I investigated numerous options, including of course the most obvious being the AV2/175 combo. I have now heard the AV2 a couple of times, and feel that for a Naim system it is pretty much the most appropriate choice re integrating AV/HT into a 2 channel system.
However, I ended up going with a Sony ES top-of-the-line flagship AV pre-power, the TAE/TAN, now discontinued. After 18mnths use, the poweramp started to give problems, which culminated in Sony replacing the complete pre-power combo with the latest flaghip, the AV integrated all digital amplifier, the TADA9000ES.
I am running this in 'hybrid' mode with my 2 channel system as before, but have plans to at least separate it out for evaluation in isolation from the Naim at home. My main reason for going the Sony route in the first place was the sheer cost of getting into AV/HT with the Naim processor and add-on amp, and some misgivings about the presentation re soundfield size etc.
Without so far doing an exact AB, I think I'm quite confident that the AV2 would still edge the TADA9000ES in absolute terms, mainly in richness, warmth and detail in dialogue, and in transient attack, but we're really talking very minor differences indeed. BUT, the difference in price is not only huge, it's disgustingly huge!
I could almost buy a new Honda Jazz for the cost of the AV2/175 & a 150 (to do 7.1). People comment about how their system costs near that of a car, but three components????!!!!!
So, I'm a Naim fan, but I love my Sony ES gear as well - both in terms of value for money, but in outright terms, it is very, very good indeed.
If you can look past the high-end/obssesive/anal-retentive point of view that it is 'only' a 'Sony' or vis-a-vis it doesn't have the requiste 'badge' to be truly high-end, the build, finish, engineering, ergonomics, feel, pride of ownership, AND the sound put it in high-end territory, at a price most mere mortals can afford.
Yes, I like the Bugattis, Ferraris, Lamborghinis and Bentleys of this world, but I'd opinion unless you have the requiste 'readies' one could be enormously happy with something from the stables of BMW or Mercedes perhaps. The difference is nowhere near as great as the reputation/mythology/marketing would have you believe.
Anyway, just some thoughts, opinions, and as always, my 2 cents worth.
Best Regards
Cheers
John...
:MILD:
:rds2: I see my name been mentioned again.wadia-miester said:
John,
From photo the TADA9000ES looks really huge. Do you have difficulty housing it on normal rack? I have not hear it but from your comment if I have to start looking for a new set of toys all over again I would certainly have a listen to the ES this time. 3-4 years ago they were in the within the same price range as the TML Audio AV processor. Market forces have indeed decided who stays. The price differences we pay for these toys are not necessary for the main reason we would hope for. The next toy (plasma tv) I am looking forward to splash out on will certainly be either Japanese or Korean. Only thing is she thinks I should wait for another 2 years.
Last edited by a moderator:
Wolfgang said:
My Naim kit all sits in an all welded Standesign Rack, plus separate Audiotech table for the CD; fortunately when I got the TAE/TAN I had the foresight to get an SoundOrganisation table for it, which is self-assemble/ bolt together, and thus I was able to adjust the shelf spacing to fit in the new beast.
Big is not the word! It's 430mm wide, x 480mm deep x 238 high and the shipping weight (carboard box with polystyrene foam, remote, batteries, detachable mains cord and manuals) was 33kg!
The height is mainly dictated by the massive toroid transformer for the power supply, set on its side, hence the height - it's about the size of an entree plate!
About the only area I can see where the engineering/build might not quite measure up to the very best 'specialist high-end' product, is that the point to point wiring, whilst minimal, is not quite as neat as say naim for eg re layout and dressing of internal wiring such as there is.
I have little doubt the internal component quality is up with the best (Sony ES have a formidable reputation for using the best components, and with their production numbers can do so for a fraction of the cost of the 'specialist', not excluding of course their own proprietary chips and software. The remote is almost a work of art, proprietary of course, as against the usual bought in generic one used by most 'specialist' makes.
The casework is all 2mm thick steel, rigidly braced, with a thick aluminium faceplate, and double walled sides; the steel chassis, plus bolt on side aluminium panels, all secured with countersunk allen-key headed bolts. Whilst physically imposing to say the least, the so called 'cascade' front panel breaks the monolithic look, giving it a very modern minimalistic air, as well as being an ergonomic advantage, and the only two knobs on the fascia being milled aluminium break the expanse of the front panel along with the cascade design, whilst finishing the whole with an imbued sense of finesse and quality.
In short, re build, engineering and finish, there is little if anything that I have seen that betters it regardless of make or cost. Whilst I love my Naim, I am as thrilled with this amp as anything I have ever owned. IMHO it is quite simply magnificent, and without question one of the finest things, hifi or no that I've ever owned.
Point taken about TML - it's sad now that they have finished making them, that used examples are going very cheap indeed, no doubt at a loss to their owners, having been 'stripped' of their mystique by dint of the selling of the company and thus the reputation of the product, notwithstanding that they were, and still are a stunning AV processor. A good example perhaps of how marketing and reputation/exclusivity enhances the 'value' of a brand, only to see it dissapear when the manufacturer 'bails out'.
As you say, it is interesting to see who is still here; personally I don't have a gripe with hi-end HiFi or specialist manufacturing either; as I stated earlier I would opinion that the AV2 would still have an edge over the Sony in absolute terms, however maybe it's just a change of life and other goals to achieve, but either way I am growing tired of being asked/needing to part with so much $$'s for small gains with the specialists products over that of the 'mainstream' hi-end, most especially in the AV/HT/multichannel arena.
Oh, and yes, the brand snobbery that goes with it at times unfortunately as well. I occasionaly read on various forums the term 'Far Eastern manufacture' usually submitted in some derogatory manner. Sure, there are many cheap and cheerful products to be found, but also ones of the highest quality as well. Nikon and Canon didn't get where they are today in the Photographic field by producing cheap junk, and Sony didn't get to be one of the worlds largest electronics manufacturers by producing cheap junk either. I still have my original Walkman pro tape deck; pristine and still working well, twenty odd years on, and still built like a fine SLR camera. At the time, one could buy competing products from Nordmende, and Saba, both German, and they WERE junk by comparison to the Walkman pro.
I'm with you re the plasma; hard part is knowing when to jump in - the performance goes up whilst the price goes down, and of course there's always the increasing range of LCD's as well.
Still, for us mere mortals, who can only afford/justify spending sensible money (well at least by hiFi 'nut' standards!) the flagship mainstream products offer fabulous value for money on a price/performance ratio.
Heh, I'll get off my soapbox now,,,, it's time I put another disk in the Naim CD player,, and my apologies if I've taken this thread a little off-topic.
Best Regards
Cheers
John...
My Naim kit all sits in an all welded Standesign Rack, plus separate Audiotech table for the CD; fortunately when I got the TAE/TAN I had the foresight to get an SoundOrganisation table for it, which is self-assemble/ bolt together, and thus I was able to adjust the shelf spacing to fit in the new beast.
Big is not the word! It's 430mm wide, x 480mm deep x 238 high and the shipping weight (carboard box with polystyrene foam, remote, batteries, detachable mains cord and manuals) was 33kg!
The height is mainly dictated by the massive toroid transformer for the power supply, set on its side, hence the height - it's about the size of an entree plate!
About the only area I can see where the engineering/build might not quite measure up to the very best 'specialist high-end' product, is that the point to point wiring, whilst minimal, is not quite as neat as say naim for eg re layout and dressing of internal wiring such as there is.
I have little doubt the internal component quality is up with the best (Sony ES have a formidable reputation for using the best components, and with their production numbers can do so for a fraction of the cost of the 'specialist', not excluding of course their own proprietary chips and software. The remote is almost a work of art, proprietary of course, as against the usual bought in generic one used by most 'specialist' makes.
The casework is all 2mm thick steel, rigidly braced, with a thick aluminium faceplate, and double walled sides; the steel chassis, plus bolt on side aluminium panels, all secured with countersunk allen-key headed bolts. Whilst physically imposing to say the least, the so called 'cascade' front panel breaks the monolithic look, giving it a very modern minimalistic air, as well as being an ergonomic advantage, and the only two knobs on the fascia being milled aluminium break the expanse of the front panel along with the cascade design, whilst finishing the whole with an imbued sense of finesse and quality.
In short, re build, engineering and finish, there is little if anything that I have seen that betters it regardless of make or cost. Whilst I love my Naim, I am as thrilled with this amp as anything I have ever owned. IMHO it is quite simply magnificent, and without question one of the finest things, hifi or no that I've ever owned.
Point taken about TML - it's sad now that they have finished making them, that used examples are going very cheap indeed, no doubt at a loss to their owners, having been 'stripped' of their mystique by dint of the selling of the company and thus the reputation of the product, notwithstanding that they were, and still are a stunning AV processor. A good example perhaps of how marketing and reputation/exclusivity enhances the 'value' of a brand, only to see it dissapear when the manufacturer 'bails out'.
As you say, it is interesting to see who is still here; personally I don't have a gripe with hi-end HiFi or specialist manufacturing either; as I stated earlier I would opinion that the AV2 would still have an edge over the Sony in absolute terms, however maybe it's just a change of life and other goals to achieve, but either way I am growing tired of being asked/needing to part with so much $$'s for small gains with the specialists products over that of the 'mainstream' hi-end, most especially in the AV/HT/multichannel arena.
Oh, and yes, the brand snobbery that goes with it at times unfortunately as well. I occasionaly read on various forums the term 'Far Eastern manufacture' usually submitted in some derogatory manner. Sure, there are many cheap and cheerful products to be found, but also ones of the highest quality as well. Nikon and Canon didn't get where they are today in the Photographic field by producing cheap junk, and Sony didn't get to be one of the worlds largest electronics manufacturers by producing cheap junk either. I still have my original Walkman pro tape deck; pristine and still working well, twenty odd years on, and still built like a fine SLR camera. At the time, one could buy competing products from Nordmende, and Saba, both German, and they WERE junk by comparison to the Walkman pro.
I'm with you re the plasma; hard part is knowing when to jump in - the performance goes up whilst the price goes down, and of course there's always the increasing range of LCD's as well.
Still, for us mere mortals, who can only afford/justify spending sensible money (well at least by hiFi 'nut' standards!) the flagship mainstream products offer fabulous value for money on a price/performance ratio.
Heh, I'll get off my soapbox now,,,, it's time I put another disk in the Naim CD player,, and my apologies if I've taken this thread a little off-topic.
Best Regards
Cheers
John...
Last edited by a moderator:
Johns Naim said:
Now I find that very interesting as I had never thought about it like that. Given the modern lifestyle and the massive availability of media in the 21st century, I guess it is not feasible for youngsters of today to sit down for a few hours in the evening, turn the lights off, and lose them selves inthe music. I doubt most have ever tried it, and those who have would find it hard work given the use of CD and Mp3
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Did anyone mention the M/F room? or notice who Hifi News were sharing a stand next too/with?
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
why not Alex?
Not really worth discussing WM - maybe they should try something other than Sonus Flabber
The other thing was the appalling performance of the Krell Showcase on music :SLEEP: No wonder thre are so many for sale at stupidly low prices at the moment.
Makes you wonder doesn't it
PS I think you will find it was HiFi+ who were set up alongside Nordost. What a surprise there
The other thing was the appalling performance of the Krell Showcase on music :SLEEP: No wonder thre are so many for sale at stupidly low prices at the moment.
Makes you wonder doesn't it
PS I think you will find it was HiFi+ who were set up alongside Nordost. What a surprise there
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
The Krell, yes most sleep inducing, though the speakers showed promise, shame about the dvd player, prehaps a wager on who produces the most overhyped dvd player at the moment too?
Dev
Moderator
I thought it was Spendor? MF have been recommending Spendors for a while now. Have they fallen out?merlin said:Not really worth discussing WM - maybe they should try something other than Sonus Flabber
Dev
Moderator
I thought the MF TT looked verrrrrry nice. Don't worry WM I'll seek help.
julian2002
Muper Soderator
dev,
that's the thing about mf gear, sure, it LOOKS nice but...
cheers
julian
that's the thing about mf gear, sure, it LOOKS nice but...
cheers
julian
Dev
Moderator
But mine sounds good
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Prehaps this is a job for Captain Bling..................................AK come on down!!!
michaelab
desafinado
I just re-instated it for you - one of the new features of vB3Dev said:
Michael.
analoguekid
Planet Rush
wadia-miester said:
Sorry for my enforced absence, new computer dead, that could have been why I had temp probs with it, waiting on new M/B and Proc, doing this on one of the kids M/C's
Dev has good looking MF kit, so must sound ok (I kinda like it too Dev) but new MF stuff (excl TT) is not so nice looking, I think they have kinda overdone it, time for a change.
Have to say those X-A 200's are kinda gay looking though, not as gay as my ERGO cans, but gay all the same.
Never went to show as too far away, seems i didn't miss much though, could it be you lot are just too discerning, you all know that they prolly just needed a coupla years burning in.
What was the best looking kit at the show? Maybe you should reccomend it to Bub and PR lets them see what they are missing, good looking kit is easier to get by the misses, means expensive kit and unrestricted nookie, if normal married guys bring home all that Mana and ugly naim stuff, then they might as well get a subscription to Razzle.
Just had a thought, why do "flatties" among others think that if kit looks good it must sound bad, I've heard plenty of ugly kit that sounds pants, there is a definate reverse snobbery going on as we still have all the brainwashees left over from Ivor and julians more prolific marketing days, nowadays all things look better than a few years ago, so why do we still put up with ugly hifi, If it sounds good then it sounds good, if it looks good also then this must be a bonus.
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
In the case of speakers I do actually agree with Alex's comments
analoguekid
Planet Rush
wadia-miester said:
WM would you kindly remind us what these comments were!
Dev
Moderator
Thank you O miracle worker. Now can you something about WM and his new found "gayness" for hifi?michaelab said:I just re-instated it for you - one of the new features of vB3
Michael.
I think he doth protest too much
