Heathrow Show

Wish they were mine Merlin.

You don't have to take it personally I thought you got rid of the tact (after all it was that good )

 

Nothing personal gary

I just don't like it when people sweepingly say things are "shite" without an explanation or some justfication (or a simple IMHO).

Tact, like all hifi, does some things very well, and others not so. FWIW, I sold my last Tact setup simply because I wanted to get back into vinyl (something to do with my age!) and I did not like the idea of digitising it.

Were I to have an entirely digital source based setup, I would still have Tact. Nothing else I have heard has impressed me more - and that includes kit costing up to ten times as much.

With regards to the SL2,s, I'd have loved to have heard them in a big room playing my own choice of music and not the standard fare that they play because it works with their system's eccentricities. Having listened to some of my favourite music on a number of Naim setups, I can say from experience that they make some sound absolutely captivating. Others however are rendered totally unlistenable - a good system as I always say, should not dictate your choice of listening material.

 

My own take, is that it would be great if you could digitise and 'Tact' the bass only, leaving the rest to the purity of analogue.

I assumed that one generally placed bass speakers in a corner when using equalisation so that one could engage the room to the max and because it's easier to reduce those frequencies that are too loud than to try to amplify those that are too quiet. It also requires far less amplification and less driver cone excursion. The equalized B & O system (Beolab 5?) is designed for you to place the speakers anywhere in a room and the powers required are horrendous.

 

Gary,
you like the overkill room, I do believe he is using an ozzie version of tact (pc based) with a few minor tweeks

 

Virtually everything at the Renaissance was deeply average I thought. The Tact room sounded a bit flat and lifeless, but I have heard it sounding much better (at Bristol a couple of years ago). I think a simpler Tact system in a smaller room would have been a much better idea. I liked the Mel Audio room a lot - beautiful gear, nice sounds, and the designer liked John Zorn so much he wrote down the name of the CD I played. My kind of guy. I also liked the Ferguson Hill room more than I thought I would. Having heard these before and been underwhelmed, I thought they did a good job of what horns do well. Silly money mind you, for a speaker with such obvious limitations.

The Park Inn had the quirkier, more entertaining systems. I liked the second IES room, Metronome CD transport/DAC 64/Lamm preamp/Renaissance monoblocks/Wilson Benesch Discoveries. I've never been much taken with WB speakers, but these sounded good, very clean and analytical, and they were playing good music in this room, which always helps. I only had a brief listen to the Neat AV room but it certainly had sufficient low-end welly, and no subwoofer required.

The Harbeth NRG speakers. Hmm. They look horrible in the flesh, and it was pretty obvious from chatting with Alan Shaw that his preference is for Harbeth old-style, but for what they are they didn't sound too bad. Too expensive compared to the competition in the UK (the floorstanders are £1200 or so, another £400 would get a pair of Compact 7s, no contest really), but apparently they're selling well in China, and to a younger market than Harbeth's traditional speakers, so maybe it makes some commercial sense outside the UK.

GT Audio was pretty good, beautiful DPS turntable into Tron amps and Avantguarde Duo horns, but, again, horns are horns, and probably not good enough all-rounders for me. The Walrus room (Brinkmann LaGrange TT, Air Tangent arm, Polish Amplifon valve amp into Duevels) was pretty good too, I like Duevels a lot, although they do look utterly ridiculous.

The best room of the lot, and the one I spent the longest in by far, was the 47 Labs room. A brief visit to hear the top of the range CD and vinyl setup (£21K transport anyone?), through Gaincard amps into Konus Essence single-driver speakers, was promising, I went back later and heard the "entry-level" Shigaraki stuff into tiny single-driver mini-monitors, which sounded great fun, and then got the chance to listen to Zorn, Kraftwerk, and a few other things, through the main setup again. I really like the Konus speakers, the Zorn track (Ne'eman, from Masada Live in Middelheim if anyone cares) absolutely f*cking rocked through this setup, probably the best I've ever heard it. Real attack and bite on Zorn's sax and Douglas's trumpet, but not in the least fatiguing. If I was a brand whore with more money than sense I'd be happy with a full 47 Labs setup. As well as sounding great it's also the coolest gear on the planet IMO.

Nice to meet up with the regulars again, and to meet Tony L for the first time. The socialising aspect is always the best thing about these shows.

-- Ian

 

This was my first visit to one of these events. Thanks to DevB for dragging me along. An interesting cultural experience. High point of the day was seeing the back of Tony L's head (sorry I didn't get a chance to introduce myself) and meeting lots of friendly folk who seemed to be happy to humour my witterings. Sunday afternoon was not too crowded and many people seemed to be quite happy to let you play your CDs so plinky audiophile 'jazz' and similar abominations were not as evident as I had feared. Like Ian says, there were some quite reasonable sounding set-ups amongst a lot of mediocrity.

I enjoyed the Walrus room very much indeed - quite different to what I have at home but it had its own strengths (amazing see-though clarity) and it worked very well on its own terms. They played some Maceo Parker too: proper music! Resuscitation in the bar was required after reading the price of the tone arm (and the rest of the kit). The neat guys were great fun and their AV room certainly didn't need a sub: I have to say however, in that room, the bass overwhelmed the rest of the sound. They were playing an arena opera DVD and I felt like I was in the middle of the orchestra, but not in a good way. I wanted to like the Avant Guard horns in the GT Audio room for their bonkers looks but the set up didn't seem to gel: terribly disjointed to my ears. The 47 labs set-ups looked very cool indeed and sounded pleasant but I didn't get a chance to listen to anything very testing. The man demonstrating the totem speakers was playing to their obvious strengths: lots of bass and lots of fun from a simple system. A Ferrari red rega CD and Amp give you an idea of the market they have in mind. I thought the SL2 ended naim system was very good. It is the first time I've heard the speakers. Where does this idea that they don't do bass come from? Compared to a bad-bwoy beemer perhaps?! 5 seconds of hearing The Ragga Twins would have convinced most people they 'do bass', even sat against a wall that was half-glazed. Lee Morgan grooved along and Arkady Volodos' Schubert was sublime. They even imaged a bit! The Nait 5i/CD5i through new AV satellites (didn't seem to have a naim yet) was fun, punchy but not the last word in sophistication. The Ragga twins (again) worked well but not a Szymanoski violin concerto (big late-romantic orchestral piece).

I did wonder what these days are supposed to do for manufacturers. It is very easy to damn on the basis of 30 second head 'round a door and most of the rooms were poky with horrible low ceilings. I'd veto any potential home with rooms like them as being impossible to get a good sound from. I suppose it's told me that Walrus will be a port of call if I ever get an attack of the valves, but I kind of knew that anyway. Otherwise it was mostly a case of prejudices confirmed.

duncan

 

A question for Sideshowbob, Robbo and Merlin.

Do you guys know who was sitting between Ian and Lee in the TacT room? He sat smack in the middle seat (out of a row of 5). He got up to introduce himself but I couldn't hear him, even though he repeated himself. So my appologies to you, whoever you are. Please let me assure you I wasn't trying to be rude.

Edit: Just learnt from Lee that it was Titian.

Sorry Titian, I was so looking forward to meeting to you as well Perhaps another time. My apologies again.

 

Duncan, You have SBLs. Of course you think the SL2s do bass.

 

I had very mixed feelings.

I was let down by a few things I'd hoped to like:

The Krell room sounded great in 2 channel but the AV demo I found OTT and trying too hard to impress with bass rather than finesse and placement.

The Meridian 808, a player in my shortlist for purchasing next year looked cheap and nasty. I was looking for a better quality finish and the Meridian guy said it was a pre-production model but I felt a bit deflated after seeing it. The Wadia 861 and Levinson 390s are in a different league as pieces of engineering.

The Naim rooms, again, left me completely cold. I looked forward to hearing the CDS3 and it did nothing for me, but I think the rest of the system being Naim made it hard to assess. I have been listening to Naim in shows and shops for the last 4 years and I'm still left feeling they are too wearing over a long period of time.[sorry all you Naimiacs]

The Chord room was a real mixed bag too, the small system I found was dynamite with those little Arc's singing nicely, while the big system was way too over processed and tried to blow you away with scale but the music had no soul.


I did hear some pleasant stuff though:

The Metronome room 2 was great with the WB Curve's and Arc's. The guys there gave me a back to back demo on the systems and I really enjoyed their sound.

The Usher room sounded superb. Although they arent the last word in detail they make the performance so involving that it doesnt detract from your foot-tapping, especially at the price.

The Pioneer plasmas were the best I've ever seen from the technology.

Lars Kristensen's Nordost demo was great and I was genuinely impressed [heared the same thing at Bristol and I honestly could not tell the difference between Valhalla power cable and regular.]

Emotive Excellence/Wadia system was pretty amazing, and the finish on those speakers is extroadinary!

But to sum up...

The best thing about the show... PMC showing the Sports Illustrated bikini DVD!!!

And the absolute worst thing about the show... PARKING!!!

 

The parking was ludicrous (and this was just on the trade only day). £10 for a few hours - which was about the same amount of time it took to actually find a space.

Anyway, as many have already said, most rooms and demos ranged from poor to OK rather than being at all captivating.

Have to say the Walrus room didn't impress at all when I was there. The chap manning it was doing a very good impression of the least knowledgable person in the general London area and the sound from the maggies seemed dull and uninteresting to me. The music was also of that 'lone female vocal' type that demonstrates nicely how a lone female vocal sounds but gives you the impression that if a guitar or, god forbid, drum sound were to be introduced the whole thing would fall over pretty quickly.

The Leema double room impressed me, as per usual, and the new look to the bigger speakers in their range should certainly attract potential buyers who were maybe put off by the more 'unique' original signature finish.

Having heard the new Velodyne CHT-R series the night before the show, let's just say that Rel and MJ Acoustics were very fortunate that Velodyne weren't at the show.

Overall I had a great day out but, unfortunately, didn't see or hear much great hi fi

 

Arrived at The Rennaisance Hotel just after 10.00 and found a parking space no problem, just a short walk from the entrance door!
As soon as I entered the main foyer next to the Isol8 display I started to get pestered by a series of very presentable young ladies (not something that happens to me alot these days!).
The first one who was attired in Goth style, accosted me with a Leema Acoustics bag and mentioned that if I was still carrying it at the end of the day then she would be happy to serve me some champagne. The second was a blonde in a dark business suit carrying a clipboard. Could I spare 20 minutes to answer some questions about Hi-Fi and A/V in return for £10?!!!!!!!!
The temptation was too much and we arranged to meet by the lifts at 11.30 (I know what your'e thinking!!!!!!!).
Anyway, 11.30 arrived and we stepped into the lift, alighting at the 1st floor where I was ushered into a hotel room where another presentable young lady was waiting. By this time I was watching for the muscle to appear and grab my wallett and watch, but it didn't happen! Instead I was tape-recorded answering questions about what I thought of the AV Tech quarterly supplement which comes free with Hi-Fi News. 20 minutes later I was back in the foyer clutching a small brown envelope containing a crisp tenner! Within minutes I had become parted from my ill gotten gains when I recieved £1.50 change and the latest issue of Hi-Fi+ together with the following two issues delivered by post (what a waste I hear you say!). Not a bad start to the day I thought and hung around the foyer in the hope that I would be approached by a third young lady who would tell me that she was offering complimentary b*** jobs for readers of Hi-Fi+. Needless to say I was to be dissapointed, so I began my tour of the show. I have to agree with others who have commented on the lack-lustre standard of exhibitors and their wares. Most of them seemed disinterested to the point of boredom except for one Scandinavian gentleman in the Raidho room would became quite agitated when I declined his offer to be seated. Anyone would have thought that I was trying to make off with his Carlsberg!!
It was nice to meet some of you in the bar (Robbo and Merlin) WM pausing only briefly to dis my system and comment about the big Amphions being shite and not "doing bass"! Cheers Tone!
I did visit the Audiocraft room and passed on WM's observations. Kevin Walker responded by digging out a Stanley Clarke demo which demonstrated very ably to myself and others in the room that the Krypton's can "do bass". Talking of bass, I was all but asleep during the Absolute Sounds demo of the big Wilsons at The Park Inn when the latin choral music was exchanged for the Kodo Drummers CD 'Mondo Head'. The impact of the large bass drum through that very expensive system was impressive! Someone else posted that they liked the sound in the Art Audio room and I have to agree. Very pleasant those Bandor drivers in the Tom Willis designed speakers that were made up of three seperate enclosures. The worst sound of the show IMHO - Chord! The most interesting person I spoke to (apart from Tony) was Nick Poulson of Isol8. I sat in on the Tact demo of 'Wish you were here' but was disappointed that the exhibitor did not explain what he or the system were doing!
Left just after 17.00 and parking charge was £7.
As Claude Raines character in Lawrence of Arabia said at the end of the film, "All in all, I wished I had stayed in Tunbridge Wells!!!

 

I did forget to add, apart from the lack of bass, it suffered terminal hifi & incesitious boredom (one thing that instills the word 'Shite' for me in any speaker or equipment'), but at least he wasn't charging for the priviledge, so he's not all bad !!!
Speaking of bass (or the lack of it), in the last 4 weeks more than half the systems I've heard have felt the need to a have a sub with full range speakers?, I find this most odd? without the use of a tact or similar, for me its never really going to work and generate proper intergration & cohesion.
Alex S made a comment a while back, "pretty looking hifi speakers<> poor preformance?"
Its like buying a people carrier, than adding a trailer for 4 more, why?
Why should you need a sub (for music) unless your speakers arn't capable of doing the lower registars, but with full-range floor standers, its more common than you think, surprised me some what?
If your going to spent £10K on a pair of Krell ref1's or BH2's for that matter, they should not only do the bass and every thing else pretty well much spot on, but make the bloody tea as well.
Or am I being just old fashioned?
One other room that did show promise, pathos intergrated & triangle speakers, the cdp was ***** you fill in the blanks, but that combo paired with a nice front end could really shine.

 

Come on, be reasonable - what DO you expect from a manufacturer?

 

tone,
the accepted definition of full range is, i believe, 20hz - 20khz at 0db. if you look at most reasonably priced 2/3 way floorstanders they are 30hz - 25khz +/- 3db (if not +/-6db). this is mainly due to the now ubiquitous use of 6.5 inch mid / bass drivers to give skinny speakers.
the only room at the show that was doing credible bass, imho, was the eminence room but the speakers there were 1) sub / sats, 2) 70k ! and 3) ludicrous for such a small room (fun though). i didn't see any speakers with even 8 inch, never mind 10, 12 or 15 inch bass cones. unfortunately they have no bwfhaf so are therefore unsellable.
i'd love to see a 3 way speaker with a 12 inch bass cone, 20-20 at +/- 3db and modestly ported (not t/l) for around 2k. unfortunately your only option if you want this is to self build.
cheers


julian

 

Self-build will get the price down but to do 20-20kHz at +/-3dB, anechoic, it's going to be either very large or very inefficient.

 

Are you sure your expectations of the exhibitors are realistic?

 

steve,
for me large is no problem (well - within reason). they'd have to be reasonably efficient though - say not much under 86db/w/m if understand such things correctly) a 4 ohm load would be ok but it shouldn't dip much below so my nap 250 gets an easyish ride of it.
knowing absolutely sweet fa about speaker design is this even possible? and if it is how mother fapping huge would the boxes need to be?
cheers


julian

 

er Julian the speakers Tone is talking about, the Amphion Kryptons, have 2 x 8 inch units

 

yeah but don't they fire out the side? still 8 inches isn't that much is it?
cheers


julian

 

I'm happy with 8 inches