Zanash is a manufacturer, not a dealer. So where is your point?
HiFi Dealers, good or bad.
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Zanash is a manufacturer, not a dealer. So where is your point?
I think what most dealers fail at the most is educating their customers and presenting reasonable alternatives. I understand that they are trying to make a living, but the way to keep a customer is to build a relationship with them "slowly" and not go for the kill at first sight.
From my former perspective as a "reviewer", I think that hi-fi stores on both sides of the pond have always been guilty of selling flavour of the month products, as opposed to selling complete systems that work properly. If two reviewers rate product "X" as their new reference, it's off to order one from the distributor because it must be good.
Building a really good stereo system is like making a really good dish. You have to put the right ingredients in it, not the ones that are the fanciest or most exotic.
Putting truffles in a burger doesn't make it good. It makes it expensive.
If dealers knew anything about synergy (one would think that they select the brands that they do because they have actually tried them), they would have more repeat customers.
From my former perspective as a "reviewer", I think that hi-fi stores on both sides of the pond have always been guilty of selling flavour of the month products, as opposed to selling complete systems that work properly. If two reviewers rate product "X" as their new reference, it's off to order one from the distributor because it must be good.
Building a really good stereo system is like making a really good dish. You have to put the right ingredients in it, not the ones that are the fanciest or most exotic.
Putting truffles in a burger doesn't make it good. It makes it expensive.
If dealers knew anything about synergy (one would think that they select the brands that they do because they have actually tried them), they would have more repeat customers.
I think the relationship between Hi-Fi Dealers and Customers is somewhat two tier, and I will explain what I mean by this.
A notionally 'good' Hi-Fi dealer will bring equipment to the customer's attention that they have sought out through informed analysis and extensive research. These will as often as not be products which don't necessarily appear in the pages of magazines or advertisement literature. I hate to do it, but to paraphrase (loosely) something that David Cameron (yes, that 'Dave' Cameron) said recently, a good Hi-Fi dealer ought to put his ears first, his customers second and his profit margins third.
I have found very few shops which have ventured a significant enough depth down the rabbit hole of the Hi-Fi World. Those that have immediately earned my respect because seeking out a good collection of equipment to sell, and then having the confidence to know that you will not necessarily have the benefit of widespread publications to bring all of this gear to the average punter's attention, means that a dealer invariably trusts his own ears and the ability of the customer (me) to discern for myself what sounds musical.
This hobby of ours is the preserve of a significant number of affluent, well educated people. But it is also the preserve of a lot of well-conditioned people, the sort that believe what they read in newspapers and (unfortunately) magazines and will make decisions almost entirely based on this.
The internet certainly has not harmed sales figures, and that people are willing to plunge for so many products 'blind', with no audition, provides very strong evidence to suggest that the way a product sounds is no longer the most significant motivating factor in a person making a purchase. Most of us enthusiasts would agree this is by no means ideal, but testimony and publicity are undoubtedly bigger stimulants for consumers to spend than direct experience.
This simple truth has led, recently, to 'chain' dealers in particular - and I do not want to name any names here for legal reasons - demanding that manufacturers and distributors do more to protect this particular section of the market, and these types of dealers constitute the other 'tier' of which I spoke in the opening paragaph.
We all know what this eventually culminated with - a lot of equipment can no longer be sold mail order, or indeed over the web at all (must be a face to face transaction). This has kept prices for a lot of kit artificially high and has meant manufacturers can set RRP at pretty much whatever they want - hence, along with other factors, the prices of gear steadily creeping up over the 10 years I have been following this industry.
In the UK at least, this poses a lot of problems as it has meant that the emphasis for our beloved hobby has become very much out of kilter - it is a seller's market, the buyer has little to no power with which to negotiate.
I know, for example, of one particular British manufacturer - who's kit I myself own and use every day - who are guilty of this. A fairly well known dealer was offering equipment by this manufacturer at discounted prices - nothing wrong with that. They initially had to keep the discounts a somewhat closely guarded secret, for reasons I initially could not comprehend. The rumour mill began turning, and it became somewhat common knowledge that the dealer in question was offering discounts. The manufacturer found out about this, and immediately stopped supplying the dealer with their kit and revoked their dealership rights.
Now, this is a proxy method of manufacturers enforcing what is essentially price fixing. Price fixing in the UK is illegal, as we all know. Who do we have to thank for this? 'Chain' Hi-Fi and Home Cinema dealers who stamped their feet when they lost sales to internet and small scale competitors. They demanded they be better protected by manufacturers, they had a ludicrous argument (if our stores have to close there will be no place for the consumer to have direct contact with equipment - a fallacy). History now shows us that the manufacturers played ball and climbed further up the authoritarian ladder to protect their high street dealership.
That has saved (temporarily) some stores, but it is going against everything we know to be true of market logic and economics. It has also led to artificially inflated prices for consumers (ourselves), who no longer have the benefit of market competitiveness to drive prices down.
For me, this has lead to several conclusions. The first - if you find a good Hi-Fi dealer, stick with them, as they are very hard to come by these days. The second - I will NEVER buy brand new products from manufacturers I know to be utilising these 'price fixing' tactics. At the moment, I shop almost exclusively second hand in Hi-Fi (with some exceptions). The third - the consumer needs to demand precisely what the dealers did a few years ago. Dealers have rights - let's not deny that, but this price fixing scandal is certainly unethical and possibly illegal.
I would like to see it changed, and I am currently investigating legal avenues for pursuing this issue further. Law is one of those unusual paradoxes in the 21st century though - intuition quickly allows you to deduce right from wrong, but objective analysis is the necessary component which allows you to put across your case. That requires evidence - difficult to find in this hobby in more than the obvious sense!
A notionally 'good' Hi-Fi dealer will bring equipment to the customer's attention that they have sought out through informed analysis and extensive research. These will as often as not be products which don't necessarily appear in the pages of magazines or advertisement literature. I hate to do it, but to paraphrase (loosely) something that David Cameron (yes, that 'Dave' Cameron) said recently, a good Hi-Fi dealer ought to put his ears first, his customers second and his profit margins third.
I have found very few shops which have ventured a significant enough depth down the rabbit hole of the Hi-Fi World. Those that have immediately earned my respect because seeking out a good collection of equipment to sell, and then having the confidence to know that you will not necessarily have the benefit of widespread publications to bring all of this gear to the average punter's attention, means that a dealer invariably trusts his own ears and the ability of the customer (me) to discern for myself what sounds musical.
This hobby of ours is the preserve of a significant number of affluent, well educated people. But it is also the preserve of a lot of well-conditioned people, the sort that believe what they read in newspapers and (unfortunately) magazines and will make decisions almost entirely based on this.
The internet certainly has not harmed sales figures, and that people are willing to plunge for so many products 'blind', with no audition, provides very strong evidence to suggest that the way a product sounds is no longer the most significant motivating factor in a person making a purchase. Most of us enthusiasts would agree this is by no means ideal, but testimony and publicity are undoubtedly bigger stimulants for consumers to spend than direct experience.
This simple truth has led, recently, to 'chain' dealers in particular - and I do not want to name any names here for legal reasons - demanding that manufacturers and distributors do more to protect this particular section of the market, and these types of dealers constitute the other 'tier' of which I spoke in the opening paragaph.
We all know what this eventually culminated with - a lot of equipment can no longer be sold mail order, or indeed over the web at all (must be a face to face transaction). This has kept prices for a lot of kit artificially high and has meant manufacturers can set RRP at pretty much whatever they want - hence, along with other factors, the prices of gear steadily creeping up over the 10 years I have been following this industry.
In the UK at least, this poses a lot of problems as it has meant that the emphasis for our beloved hobby has become very much out of kilter - it is a seller's market, the buyer has little to no power with which to negotiate.
I know, for example, of one particular British manufacturer - who's kit I myself own and use every day - who are guilty of this. A fairly well known dealer was offering equipment by this manufacturer at discounted prices - nothing wrong with that. They initially had to keep the discounts a somewhat closely guarded secret, for reasons I initially could not comprehend. The rumour mill began turning, and it became somewhat common knowledge that the dealer in question was offering discounts. The manufacturer found out about this, and immediately stopped supplying the dealer with their kit and revoked their dealership rights.
Now, this is a proxy method of manufacturers enforcing what is essentially price fixing. Price fixing in the UK is illegal, as we all know. Who do we have to thank for this? 'Chain' Hi-Fi and Home Cinema dealers who stamped their feet when they lost sales to internet and small scale competitors. They demanded they be better protected by manufacturers, they had a ludicrous argument (if our stores have to close there will be no place for the consumer to have direct contact with equipment - a fallacy). History now shows us that the manufacturers played ball and climbed further up the authoritarian ladder to protect their high street dealership.
That has saved (temporarily) some stores, but it is going against everything we know to be true of market logic and economics. It has also led to artificially inflated prices for consumers (ourselves), who no longer have the benefit of market competitiveness to drive prices down.
For me, this has lead to several conclusions. The first - if you find a good Hi-Fi dealer, stick with them, as they are very hard to come by these days. The second - I will NEVER buy brand new products from manufacturers I know to be utilising these 'price fixing' tactics. At the moment, I shop almost exclusively second hand in Hi-Fi (with some exceptions). The third - the consumer needs to demand precisely what the dealers did a few years ago. Dealers have rights - let's not deny that, but this price fixing scandal is certainly unethical and possibly illegal.
I would like to see it changed, and I am currently investigating legal avenues for pursuing this issue further. Law is one of those unusual paradoxes in the 21st century though - intuition quickly allows you to deduce right from wrong, but objective analysis is the necessary component which allows you to put across your case. That requires evidence - difficult to find in this hobby in more than the obvious sense!
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2nd mr kemp.
good analysis of the industry.
darryl.
good analysis of the industry.
darryl.
I agree absolutely with you my friend. A good dealer is worth more than the few hundred you 'save' here and there. My dealer is in Blackrock, Co. Dublin and I hope, that as long as I am interested in music reproduction, he will be there giving good advice, home demos etc..
Be wary of dealers who slag off kit they don't sell.
I've been told by some dealers some rather excellent kit was crap in the past. Subsequently my own ears (and others, whose opinions I trust I must add) have told me a different story.
I've been told by some dealers some rather excellent kit was crap in the past. Subsequently my own ears (and others, whose opinions I trust I must add) have told me a different story.
My experience of dealers (pre access to the internet) was always fine. He always seemed to have my interest at heart. He always nudged me along towards the correct new box to add to the system always letting my own ears finally decide if the new box did represent an upgrade.
However I was always puzzled why we only every used the same manufacturers equipment. He had other peoples kit in the shop but when asked he always said he thought the stuff I used to be superior.
Never having the time to investigate properly other manufacturers kit, and having no mates who had the slightest interest in music the way folks who frequent the forums do, always made it difficult ....... no.... almost impossible to listen to other equipment.
Suddenly as the internet opened up and access become possible to all of us, it became very apparent that there was a whole host of manufacturers kit out there, some a lot cheaper and better sounding to my ears than the stuff I had been drip fed over the previous 20 odd years.
Needless to say I don`t have any of that equipment left in my system, My system now stands me at an awful lot less money and I never ever go near a dealers shop. I now take advice from people who frequent the forums and trust my own ears.
Listening to kit in other peoples systems and then borrowing the said bit of kit is to my mind the way forward.
Just my take on the question raised
However I was always puzzled why we only every used the same manufacturers equipment. He had other peoples kit in the shop but when asked he always said he thought the stuff I used to be superior.
Never having the time to investigate properly other manufacturers kit, and having no mates who had the slightest interest in music the way folks who frequent the forums do, always made it difficult ....... no.... almost impossible to listen to other equipment.
Suddenly as the internet opened up and access become possible to all of us, it became very apparent that there was a whole host of manufacturers kit out there, some a lot cheaper and better sounding to my ears than the stuff I had been drip fed over the previous 20 odd years.
Needless to say I don`t have any of that equipment left in my system, My system now stands me at an awful lot less money and I never ever go near a dealers shop. I now take advice from people who frequent the forums and trust my own ears.
Listening to kit in other peoples systems and then borrowing the said bit of kit is to my mind the way forward.
Just my take on the question raised
The very idea of building a relationship with a dealer made me drop my bacon sarnie.
Isn't he supposed to sell you a system/component you can be happy with for a reasonable period of time? This 'relationship' implies continuous dissatisfaction to me, ever switching, always forking out your hard earned.
He isn't your friend he's talking to you because he wants to make money out of you.
There also seem to be as many dealers as customers posting on ZG of late.
Isn't he supposed to sell you a system/component you can be happy with for a reasonable period of time? This 'relationship' implies continuous dissatisfaction to me, ever switching, always forking out your hard earned.
He isn't your friend he's talking to you because he wants to make money out of you.
There also seem to be as many dealers as customers posting on ZG of late.
I think its perfectly normal to build a "relationship" with a dealer; it should almost be part of the package. Of course, he's talking to you because he wants to make money out of it. Are you not talking to him because you want something as well?
Crazy little thing called knowledge.
As a customer, I would want to be invited to "events" at his shop, be invited to meet designers, be encouraged to try subtle changes in my system over time that made both financial sense and to the overall listening experience.
A really good dealer I once used, introduced me to a lot of good music that I bought from him. None of the audiophile crap that gets pushed in some magazines, but really good music.
Car dealers suck at this now, including companies such as Ferrari, Bentley, etc...
You are just one more customer.
I can't speak for Mini-Cooper in the U.K., but my wife and I recently traded in a BMW for a mini-cooper S clubman and the experience was odd.
I love the car. Not crazy about the "sell" or post-sale follow-up.
Crazy little thing called knowledge.
As a customer, I would want to be invited to "events" at his shop, be invited to meet designers, be encouraged to try subtle changes in my system over time that made both financial sense and to the overall listening experience.
A really good dealer I once used, introduced me to a lot of good music that I bought from him. None of the audiophile crap that gets pushed in some magazines, but really good music.
Car dealers suck at this now, including companies such as Ferrari, Bentley, etc...
You are just one more customer.
I can't speak for Mini-Cooper in the U.K., but my wife and I recently traded in a BMW for a mini-cooper S clubman and the experience was odd.
I love the car. Not crazy about the "sell" or post-sale follow-up.
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
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why not? it's about time people started to tell the truth about their experiences.
I think they are the worst HIFI Shop I have ever been , a shame as they are my nearest.
they once told me that Linn is the best in the world and everything that everyone else sells is shit, arrogance beyond belief and a pretty crappy product range too, and nowhere to park.
they also put my cartridge on incorrectly and argued for an hour that it was my fault because I smoked!
twats, and will never get my money.
Shops that I've found offer good service and are polite
Grahams
Walrus
KJ
Len Gregory
Classique Sounds
Dealers I don't like from personal experience
Billy Vee
Affordable Valve
Matrix
HIFI Experience
Sounds of Music
Except that many dealers are rude arrogant and ignorant and people cant be bothered with it - especailly when the kit they sell is not sold on merit but on markup and they try to get you to spend 25% of bedget on wire that costs £1 a metre that they sell for £1000. (Thinking of a certain dealer in reading area... oh gosh darn it they are called Audio Consultants). I wouldnt deal with Sounds of Music either or Br(w)anko.
I agree with Mr C - the industry - bar a few honourable exceptions has largely itself to blame.
Well I think expensive cables are over priced and a waste of time but thats another thread
Walrus are good - and Audio Reflections as well as the Emporium.
I agree with Mr C - the industry - bar a few honourable exceptions has largely itself to blame.
Well I think expensive cables are over priced and a waste of time but thats another thread
Walrus are good - and Audio Reflections as well as the Emporium.
mr cat
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exactly - if you are prepared to list good esperiences, then why not bad ones?
SMEagol
Because we wants it...
Classique sounds - Pauls a top bloke!
and Len Gregory talked at length about options without trying to sell me a single thing.
Very refreshing.
I thought Noteworthy Audio were another case of people passionate about what they sell, and keen to advise.
Well done you lot!
...as to the bloke with the small shop in London that I spoke to regarding a secondhand hyperspace (none of the above I've listed) if you don't like people - don't work in a shop. I walked away from that because of the "tude" as I was getting. Couldn't be less arsed and grumpy with it. Spoke to someone else and he's got form for this apparently.
...and the "popular" high end ebay shop that hides under a rug when you tell him his vinyls warped - thank you. and goodbye.
and Len Gregory talked at length about options without trying to sell me a single thing.
Very refreshing.
I thought Noteworthy Audio were another case of people passionate about what they sell, and keen to advise.
Well done you lot!
...as to the bloke with the small shop in London that I spoke to regarding a secondhand hyperspace (none of the above I've listed) if you don't like people - don't work in a shop. I walked away from that because of the "tude" as I was getting. Couldn't be less arsed and grumpy with it. Spoke to someone else and he's got form for this apparently.
...and the "popular" high end ebay shop that hides under a rug when you tell him his vinyls warped - thank you. and goodbye.
Audio Consultants is one of the worst I've experienced....told me he dont need my business cos hes doing so well that last year was his best business year for the last 20. Asked for a discount and said 7%, I asked why 7%, he said why not and is a number he came up with in his head at the time and dont need to give any. Also stated that many people dislike him for not giving discounts ( tight) and people from forums speaks badly of him. Havn't even heard of Weiss and gave me a lecture on 3D soundstage because he thinks I have no idea what it is and in no way have it with my equipment mentioned...again, everything he dont stock are shit to him. Absolute BIG TWAT.
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