I bought the Moon... and all I got was an Eclipse.

[titian]

Not too foward, not too laid-back, just the right momentum to keep the music flowing in a free and natural breath&pace. A very satysfing 3D music experience.

Now the big surprise... it's incredible how close an old and cheap Marantz CD-40 can get in terms of the same music enjoyment. The big diference only being a more 2D perspective. In the end they both are true multibit machines anyway...
...
One big disapoitment though... I did the null test to the MF A1000, and I could hear all the distortion it's producing..

I just wonder if distortion is the only relevant factor to judge an amplifier.
Does distortion has anything to do with 2D or 3D music experience, soundstage, for example?

 

[BerylliumDust]

I don't know, but as you went from not knowing that PW did null tests to dismissing his tests on the basis that they weren't real-world, it thought it would be interesting to know why you came to that conclusion.

When I first answered you I hadn't read Felix's post in which he says that PW null tested several 405s in a daisychain arrengement. I'm sorry!

Now I'm very interested in null test a 405 myself.

 

[BerylliumDust]

I just wonder if distortion is the only relevant factor to judge an amplifier.
Does distortion has anything to do with 2D or 3D music experience, soundstage, for example?

Titian,

Distortion is everything that it isn't in your CD from a reproduction perspective.

When we talk about audio equipment we are actually comparing different kind of distortions. That's why we end up talking about synergy.

There is no good distortion or bad distortion. There is only distortion. There are, however, distortions we tolerate more than others.

When you hear an amplifier, like I did, with virtually no distortion when connected to a normal loudspeaker your perspective changes completely and then you'll understand the difference between 2D and 3D music experience from your CD.

 

[wadia-miester]

Excellent Analitly rearing it Tube like head again.

 

[BerylliumDust]

Wm,

Still using wire to compensate for your amplifier distortions?

Still using paper cones to mask your amplifier distortions?

What about transparency? Do you really want to hear what is in your CDs?

Wm the audio musician...

 

[wadia-miester]

One day BM, your fixation will get the better of you , yes I'm so flawed, oh woe is me, tubes are the holy grail, my system is so coloured & opaque, I need wires to remove the imprefections, my dispicable poorly designed and ill fitting distortion ravaged US designed noise makers of grim musical reproduction are not fit tro kiss your 'other worldy N1000's. I shall at once return my membership to Blues Brother assocation, for my inadquate musicainship I've shown over the past 25 years as a skin beater :drum:



Please do accept my most humble apologies :notworthy
Oh wise man of mentored wizened thermonic sage & non over sampled digital data reorganiser. :kneel:

 

[titian]

BerylliumDust,
it's great that you finally have found the right CD player for your self.
If you are so interested in hearing what's on a Cd, then maybe you should start by getting another player but of course if you haven't heard anything better you cannot know and it's difficult to get convinced.
It's also great that you believe that in 2004 someone reached the absolute perfection and that this can be proved.
Fortunately like in all religions not everybody gets blind or fanatic.

 

[BerylliumDust]

I know nothing about audio... I know nothing about music... if I knew something I wouldn't be here... that's for sure.

 

[titian]

I know nothing about audio... I know nothing about music... if I knew something I wouldn't be here... that's for sure.

It's never too late to know about music.
.. and about audio, there are at least two ways: believe in your ears or believe in the technical specifications.
... and everybody has his own degree of these two ways.
For me music should always be in front of the rest.

 

[merlin]

BD,

it's simply another take on the subjective/objective arguement isn't it?

There are those on ZG, who would argue that it is the enjoyment of the music that counts, and that endlessly pursuing technical perfection is not a guarantee that you will achieve that goal. Both approaches are perfectly valid, it is simply a case of differing goals.

I would not argue that zero distortion is technically superior. I would however suggest that for some listeners, it is not high on the list of priorities, hence some of the responses. Technically superior and subjectively preferable are often different things. Therefore the word better can be contentious. If, for instance, you were to tell me that the Quad 405 were better than my McIntosh, I would have to take issue with you

 

[BerylliumDust]

Merlin,

I don't buy it... even if the 405 has a perfect null, which I still doubt - I have to see it with my own eyes or at least know how it was null tested by PW - it has a severe limitation, it was designed to work with nominal 8 ohms load impedances... it is therefore current limited.

That's the reason why the arrengement I've mentioned is so interesting. You can connect the amplifier to every speaker you like and see the corresponding null test result. Still, a perfect null test without any load connected to your amplifier is no doubt a sign of a great amplifier design because in order to have a perfect null with any speaker load you must have a null without load. It's not sufficient but a necessary condition.

As for the subjective/objective arguement I just say this: when you are driving your car and press the break pedal you know you are breaking because you see it and feel it. Now, in order to design or install a better hydraulic break system for your car you have to compare the break distances for every new change in the system. You will eventually reach a point where you can't just see if you are making any progress because your eyes no longer are able to discern the differences. So you must find a way of measure it. On the limit you get yourself a descriptive model that correlates the reality of the facts with the maths. So far so good. You have found the better solution and you are ready to install it in your car. Not only you must know how to install it, not to compromise what has started to be a better solution, but also you have to make sure the system works. So you perform the same measures again to confirm that. Only afterwards you start to note you're breaking later in those old and familiar corners in your way home, because you can feel it and see it. As far as your empirical experience confirms your measurements you will be pushing the limit and start to break even later and enjoying every corner like never before.

Despite you now have a better car it doesn't necessarily mean your driving skils are also better, but you difinitively have a way of improving it. You having a better car is a question of science... driving better is a question of art.

The very same is valid to audio and music.

Take Wm and Titian examples, one is saying he can better the industry's best by performing relatively simple and cheap PS mods; the other is saying he must pay a fortune to have the industry's best. Both believe in playing with cables for better sound... the first make cheap ones the other buy the most costly ones. Both claim they know about music.

But what both end up doing is changing equipment all the time... why change things?

 

[titian]

But what both end up doing is changing equipment all the time... why change things?

sorry not my case! Last change was two years ago with the CD-player! The previous one was ten years old and was the weakest part of the system.

.. ok, this year I changed my 10 years old Soundstyle racks and this mostly for the eye and yes last year got the newer version of my satellites (didn't "change" philosophy, Trademark neither model!)

PS: I do not claim I have the best! and I know there is still improvement and I never tell others the should buy what I have.
The next step the room acoustics then MAYBE end of next year a new phono stage to replace the Klyne.

 

[BerylliumDust]

PS: I do not claim I have the best! and I know there is still improvement and I never tell others the should buy what I have.

Potentially there is always room for improvement... but do you know what is effectively better and not just different? Because I doubt that knowing what it is really better you wouldn't buy it. Or is just a matter of not knowing everything that is on the market? Do you really have the chance of hearing everything in a lifetime? Do you want to? Or you get to a point you must start establishing priorities? Since in your case money isn't one of them ( unless of course you don't buy anything below a certain price point) in what basis do you establish your priorities? Do you feel you already know where always to search?

You don't tell others they should buy what you have but you told me I should change the Moon Eclipse, which is the very same thing. And if you think so it's because you know something better and therefore you must have something better. Why should I change the Eclipse? And what machine should I buy instead?

 

[titian]

but do you know what is effectively better and not just different?

For me only by trying, not looking at tests and technical figures.

Because I doubt that knowing what it is really better you wouldn't buy it.

depends how much it cost and if I can at the moment afford it.

Or is just a matter of not knowing everything that is on the market? Do you really have the chance of hearing everything in a lifetime?

I don't know all what's out on the market and therefore I principly know that my stuff is not the best.

Do you want to? Or you get to a point you must start establishing priorities?

I would love to but I haven't the time. Someone has to earn money.

Since in your case money isn't one of them ( unless of course you don't buy anything below a certain price point) in what basis do you establish your priorities?

Here you are very wrong. But very probably I'm a person which spends percentually the most of his income on "music (CDs, LPs, hardware..). Something like 30% (?). Of course I cannot go on like this but I won't need to!

Do you feel you already know where always to search?

No, but I'm not looking for anything and what I was looking for I did it with Mile.

You don't tell others they should buy what you have but you told me I should change the Moon Eclipse, which is the very same thing.

It was a logical question that came in my mind after your crusade about distortion (perfect null test) and hear what's on the CD.

Why should I change the Eclipse? And what machine should I buy instead?

because maybe they are others which reproduce more of what's on the Cd and have less distortion. I don't care which CD player does that. It's not my problem.

Maybe I have to repeat myself.

. and about audio, there are at least two ways: believe in your ears or believe in the technical specifications.
... and everybody has his own degree of these two ways.
For me music should always be in front of the rest.

And this implies that two different persons like WM and I are going in two different ways. This doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. It doesn't mean that people should follow me or WM. The same for null tests and "hear only what's on the CD".

 

[michaelab]

Vasco, as I mentioned to you on the CdA (Portuguese audio forum) you've become a fundamentalist, just as bad as the Mana evangelists. Don't become too influenced by Tube Dude. I have the greatest respect for him and his system does sound very good but you need to find your own way

btw, I know that you are doing a lot of "acting" on this thread

Michael.

 

[BerylliumDust]

Titian,

I don't have any crusade. I just am not happy with my amplifer after hearing Tube Dude's integrated solid state amplifier with only 30W pushing the 1K's ackward load really hard. And this is the very same amplifier which has a perfect null. It just goes a long way in proving another point:

"What is mistaken for power is simply greater dynamic range and the resolution of musical information. It is this resolution, rather than outright loudness or brute force, which is the most important component in the perception of power."

There aren't two different ways of geting true fidelity (Wm's or yours). There is only one way: the output being equal to the input. And I can't see (maybe the problem is really me) how someone can argue against that.

There are, however, in the presumed impossibility of accomplishing that goal different ways of listening music through devices: our grand-grandfathers were absolutely delighted with a gramophone!

So, why aren't we?

 

[BerylliumDust]

Vasco, as I mentioned to you on the CdA (Portuguese audio forum) you've become a fundamentalist, just as bad as the Mana evangelists. Don't become too influenced by Tube Dude. I have the greatest respect for him and his system does sound very good but you need to find your own way

btw, I know that you are doing a lot of "acting" on this thread

Michael.

Michael,

I really don't know what you are talking about... maybe you should explain me.

 

[sideshowbob]

Second letter down here is quite interesting on the question of null testing:

http://www.stereophile.com/thinkpieces/165/index5.html

Cheap opamps anybody?

-- Ian

 

[BerylliumDust]

Second letter down here is quite interesting on the question of null testing:

http://www.stereophile.com/thinkpieces/165/index5.html

Cheap opamps anybody?

-- Ian

Ian,

Show me an opamp playing music from your CD player, feeding your loudspeakers and exhibiting that kind of null and I'll be most glad in buy it... with the added bonus that it is cheap.

So now the problem is having an (op)amp not being sufficiently costly?

 

[joel]

Show me an opamp playing music from your CD player, feeding your loudspeakers and exhibiting that kind of null and I'll be most glad in buy it... with the added bonus that it is cheap.

op-amp amp
It ain't cheap though