I bought the Moon... and all I got was an Eclipse.

hey Dev, I wasn't gonna open up that whole can of worms!

 

Michael knows that it was tongue in cheek comment

 

Joel,

The point isn't size... if you want to know HOW bad (or how good... nah!) the Gaincard is just null test it in a similar way to that I've mentioned (make sure that both amplifiers are not earthed) and see for yourself.

Compare it with the same null test of a clone... Only then you'll know for sure if something is missing...

 

Out of interest, would you care to share some of the numbers, both absolute and relative best/worst, for amps you have tested?

 

In a way, the 47 Labs/Gainclone idea is quite subversive. The fact is, it's quite simple, using opamps, to build an amplifier that does an extremely good job of sounding like real music through appropriate speakers, and these amps are the proof of it. The fact that they're so easy and cheap to clone, because of the essential simplciity of the circuit, also helps to puncture an awful lot of the mysticism and hype surrounding the hifi industry.

47 Labs are cheeky enough to take that knowledge to its absolute extreme, with Philips screw connectors for the speaker connections, plastic non-solder RCA plugs, refusing to use "audiophile" caps and resistors, and all the rest of it, they package it beautifully, and sell it at a high price. This makes them the Salvador Dali of audio. I love them for it. More power to them.

-- Ian

 

Perfectly happy . Just looked like an interesting thing to try out and, for £100, I couldn't really go wrong. Also, I'm considering some PSU mods to the DAC64, in which case I'd need a substitute for when it's out of action.

Still, if I end up preferring my little 47 Labs clone DAC to the DAC64 I'll be quite a lot better off after selling the DAC64 :MILD: .....

Michael.

 

Joel,

I have the absolute reference both in terms of mesurements and sound (or no sound): Tube Dude's amp with virtually perfect null. You could hear nothing, and only with an oscilloscope in a very high resolution you could see some minor differences between output and input.

Everything else must be judge by its standards... as far as I know it is the perfect amp. So everything else I've tested is frankly bad, not in sound though... but in true fidelity (and that you certainly can hear). But I don't want a sound I want THE SOUND of my favourite music.

Tube Dude is light-years ahead of the industry in this regard (and then some)... but then again, who the hell is Tube Dude?

But don't believe me, see for yourself. Take your favourite amp and compare it with a cheap integrated amp... then you start to figure out where the problem really is in the rest of your system.

 

BD,
could you please place a photo of your listening room with your components.

thanks

 

Prehaps some ego-pills will help BD?
There are many cottage industry 'genii' dotted around the the place, some you'll never hear of, others just produce one or 2, as the build time permitts.
There are pieces of equipment you'll never hear, that are just sublime, yet never touted in the press.
To post the the following is at best ill informed & some what condesending.

BD wrote

" have the absolute reference both in terms of mesurements and sound (or no sound): Tube Dude's amp with virtually perfect null. You could hear nothing, and only with an oscilloscope in a very high resolution you could see some minor differences between output and input.

Everything else must be judge by its standards... as far as I know it is the perfect amp. So everything else I've tested is frankly bad, not in sound though... but in true fidelity (and that you certainly can hear). But I don't want a sound I want THE SOUND of my favourite music.

Tube Dude is light-years ahead of the industry in this regard (and then some)... but then again, who the hell is Tube Dude?

But don't believe me, see for yourself. Take your favourite amp and compare it with a cheap integrated amp... then you start to figure out where the problem really is in the rest of your system.

Have you considered a career in marketing sir?, I feel Nordost would benefit greatly from you talents, this post is going on the wall in the conference room, along with Mike's Dac 64 best digital front end ever.
BD,
I take my hat off to you sir, a fine piece of promotion by any standards.
Wm

 

You got it, baby!

Please do, I feel Ian's been a bit cloak and dagger about his defection to Minimalistan.

Experiementing with cheap dacs, I've been surprised by how little a source has to do to just sound basically good without any obvious faults, and how just binning something altogether can be more productive than tweaking it to perfection. Really, the majority of the sound quality seems to come from the speakers, amps and system setup.

 

I know, and I too love them for it. Sadly it is somewhat at odds with my McIntosh affliction, so I think I need something flashier You too might consider exchanging the Gyro for an Opus 3

 

Wm and Titian,

I had three reasons for sharing all of that with you:

1) I was hoping someone could show me an amplifier THAT I COULD BUY with the closest performance to Tube Dude's amp because he don't sell me his. I didn't have an answer (the Quad 405s being a partial answer);

2) I was hoping someone could present a valid argument against the validity of the null test in the form of the presented arrengement. It didn't happen;

3) I wanted to know what the so considered "resident gurus" have to say about it. But it is difficult to talk about something they have never seen or imagined possible. So they call it (bad) religion. But if religion is made with oscilloscopes I am a believer: man did walk in the Moon.

So, my only solution is to build my own amp. It will take a while, no doubt, but at least I know where I am going... to the Moon (I'll send you a photo)!

For now I'll Eclipse myself with my music... see you on the other side of the Moon!

 

Are you sure??

 

How so?

Nah, the TT setup completely rocks. It's staying. Don't want to f*ck about with something that sounds so good to me. Not at the moment anyway.

-- Ian

 

But it looks so decadent

That depends on whether you consider the ears argument valid I guess BD. From what I have read, the test is perfectly valid for measuring distortion in a power amplifier. From what I have learnt, this does not neccessarily have a bearing on musical enjoyment, which for me is the reason I own a hifi.

 

Well over here you have completely failed. I never said I was a guru, actually the people who know me, can see that my technical knowledge in Hifi is very bad. Somewhere in this forum I also wrote that. You better first learn about the people who you judge before saying anything! And maybe even meeting them would perhaps also be helpfull.
But anyway if you are happy, everybody else is also.

PS: and maybe you should also try to take your time in understanding what people write. Naturally that depends on your IQ and especially (I hope in this case) the will.

Have a nice ride!

 

But Ian it looks bling enough even for me, this cannot be in keeping with your new anti bling design stance, I'll give you a hundred quid for it and take on your embarassement, oh and I'll need the phono stage as well, you could soon knock up a decent anti bling Tt with a biscuit tin, an old arrow, and one of yer mums darning needles, probably

 

If you can produce a null between the input and output of a power amplifier then that is unarguably a measure of amplifier goodness. OTOH if you cannot it doesn't imply that the amp is distorting, there are other mechanisms that could cause a poor null with a perfect amp.

The null test was intended to show that amps that measure well in conventional terms produce no audible distortion in use. It was not intended as a tool for developing amps.

Paul

 

Cloak and dagger

Well, you mentioned it in passing whereas I like to make a big song and dance of things, and bore everyone to death.

How much is the baby 47 Labs transport? I quite fancy one. Have you compared it to, say, a bog standard DVD player or the like?

TIA

 

Now I've had it for a few weeks boring everyone to death with it is exactly what I will be doing. Didn't want to rush to judgement, but I'm completely sold on the idea now. Everything sounds tremendously live, much more than any other DAC I've used. They know what they're doing.

About £1500 new, although you can get much cheaper Japanese voltage grey imports (Audio Cubes for example). I paid £1500 for the transport + DAC, "used", from Heatherdale Audio (http://www.hifi-stereo.com/). I say "used" because it was completely unused, still in sealed shrinkwrap, and UK voltage. It's also the latest generation (older versions have an orange display and the power switch on the left hand side, the newer version has a green display and the power switch at the back). He also had a Gaincard + PSU for about £1300. Worth watching his site and maybe contacting him, I wonder if he has a regular source for this stuff.

Not yet, keep meaning to but haven't got around to it. It's a fine transport though, plays CD-R and CD-RW with no problems, has remote control, does everything a transport should whilst simultaneously being cool as f*ck. It uses a CEC mechanism. The ceramic on all of this stuff is surprisingly heavy too. The transport and power supplies are small but very hefty.

-- Ian