I bought the Moon... and all I got was an Eclipse.

sideshowbob said:
Cheap opamps anybody?
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Hi Ian

After "null" testing many op amps , I come to the conclusion that the NE5532 is effectively one of the best... :cool:

No wonder that is my choice even in my "venerable" CD 202.

Cheers

Jorge

PS: The second letter is indeed much interesting...great minds think alike. :MILD:
 
Tube_Dude said:
It's no more than a Gainclone ,that you can build for peanuts and with better construction , that the sample from 47 Labs . :cool:
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Hi Jorge,
I have no experience of the clones, and not too much of the real Gaincard, but something I noticed with the clones (I've seen) is that they seem to deviate somewhat from Kimura's design in that they tend to be larger.
I don't know if this makes a difference, but he seems to feel that the shortest possible circuit paths (especially for NFB) are vital to his design.
The *real* Gaincard does not look that easy to copy - at original size (although I guess it is perfectly possible to do so).
Gaincard pricing is not *that* ridiculous in Japan anyway although they ain't cheap either.
The Shigaraki series is not made by 47Labs itself, but by a company in Osaka I believe (could well be wrong, though).
 
BerylliumDust said:
So now the problem is having an (op)amp not being sufficiently costly?
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BD, stop being so presumptuous. I have no problem with opamps at all. The reference was to the irony that your apparently incredibly difficult test could be passed by a cheap opamp. Don't assume that means I don't like opamps (I own some 47 Labs gear after all).

-- Ian
 
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joel said:
I have no experience of the clones, and not too much of the real Gaincard, but something I noticed with the clones (I've seen) is that they seem to deviate somewhat from Kimura's design in that they tend to be larger.
I don't know if this makes a difference, but he seems to feel that the shortest possible circuit paths (especially for NFB) are vital to his design.
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Good point. The circuits, such as they are, are very easy to clone, but some of the cloners do seem to have missed some of the subtleties of the original design philosophy, although I have no idea if these subtleties actually make any difference to the sound. Another example is the way the cloners tend to go to town using "audiophile" componentry alongside the opamps, an approach that seems to me to be missing the point of the original design, and which, I suppose, may lead to different-sounding results.

-- Ian
 
That 47 labs amp in TD's link, is it just me, they are asking serious money for it, and it may sound terrific, but they are having a laugh with the price, build quality is abyssmal, components aside, they could at least have paid for a decent housing, I've seen better home made amps.
 
You obviously haven't seen it in the flesh AK. It's as well made as any audio equipment at its price, but its design priorities are very different from the big and heavy boy's jewellery some people seem so enamoured of. And we all know that component cost has no bearing whatsoever on retail price of the finished product, as any owner of any several thousand pound CD player, amp, and speakers should be well aware.

Oh, and it sounds great too, with appropriate speakers (they don't like impedances below 4 ohms).

Edit: just looked at TD's link. (1) That's the cheaper Shigaraki integrated; (2) there has, it seems, been some controversy as to whether those internal pictures are what they claim to be. I've opened up my Shigaraki DAC and it's an extremely neat piece of work.

-- Ian
 
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Fair enough Ian, and I understand the design philosophy re components/signal path, just thought they coulda made a bit more effort given the cost, there are those bits of kit that sound great and have the build quality to match, Naim for example, if the casing was even sturdier they could b get awy with charging even more, I'm sure it sounds great, and wasn't commenting on that as I haven't heard it :)

EDIT Just seen your edit, now you know what I mean, what's the one with the cylindrical shaped amp, oh and what do they charge for these?
 
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sideshowbob said:
BD, stop being so presumptuous. I have no problem with opamps at all. The reference was to the irony that your apparently incredibly difficult test could be passed by a cheap opamp. Don't assume that means I don't like opamps (I own some 47 Labs gear after all).

-- Ian
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Ian,

As you see you nailed it...

The industry came with an almost perfect amplifying device many years ago but nonetheless you still haven't an amplifier capable of driving typical loudspeakers up with that standards.

So yes... it is indeed an incredibly difficult test for an amplifier driving real speakers. That's why Tube Dude's amp is so good!
 
sideshowbob said:
It's as well made as any audio equipment at its price, but its design priorities are very different from the big and heavy boy's jewellery some people seem so enamoured of. -- Ian
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IMO,those buying into the 47 Labs philosophy are as guilty of being influenced by styling as any owner of brushed aluminium behemoths (it's a kind of anti bling thing!) The advantage is increased profit margins.

Ian, it's nothing more than inverse snobbery and anti establishment :D
 
I've built a nonOS dac that's essentially the same as the 47 Labs dac with a different powersupply and an opamp as output stage. I think the reatil price of 47 Labs is reasinable given parts cost, build, seller profit margin's and the taxman's protection money. And the ceramic cases look great, tasteful and chic as opposed "big and heavy boy's jewellery" gay chav bling.

Focusing on the parts cost is a distraction, as I only need a very simple circuit to get a sound that is essentially complete. I've raised the cost by adding more parts to make the sound different, but it's a matter of emphasising parts of the sound I like and attenuate parts I don't rather than creating more music out of the digital stream.

I care how much an art print cost to make, just how good it looks, f'rinstance.
 
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Ah I get it.

So the real capitalists out there aim to produce the best possible sound from the minimum number of parts, as the sound dictates to retail pricing and the parts determine the build cost.

No wonder there are so many minimalist designers out there :D
 
Thought threy were more expensive thasn they actually are just checked the website, but they gave prices in dollars, what are the uk prices like. I'm not saying it doesn't sound good, but my amp sounds good(to me) it also happens to be well built, and more importantly built to last, Your art example, is a not to bad one, however art is for hanging on the wall, and looking at something does not wear it out, the build of the shigaraki amp looks positively flimsy, no need for that given the margins they will be working to.
 
analoguekid said:
but my amp sounds good(to me) it also happens to be well built, and more importantly built to last, Your art example, is a not to bad one, however art is for hanging on the wall, and looking at something does not wear it out, the build of the shigaraki amp looks positively flimsy, no need for that given the margins they will be working to.
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Believe me. 47 Labs kit is immaculately built (I'm a bit dubious of the pic in the link, but have seen the Gain card nekkid and in the flesh).
The whole point of the Gaincard is that it is very, very, very small; something the "cloners" have, as far as I'm aware, been unable to emulate*. It's pretty easy to lay out a PCB over a wide area (or so I've been told), but building a really small amp with point-to-point wiring and minute circuit paths is far more challenging from a construction perspective.
Well, that's what they say, anyway.

*apologies to any clone builders who ahve been able to match Kimura-san's skills. But you would not have been able to do it if he hadn't done it first, would you...
 
Kit said:
I've built a nonOS dac that's essentially the same as the 47 Labs dac with a different powersupply and an opamp as output stage.
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I just bought a similar non-OS DAC (see here) which cost me roughly £100, a fraction of the 47 Labs 4715 DAC price. The cost of components is much less still. It has a passive output stage (just like the 47 labs dac). I haven't received or (obvioulsy) heard it yet but I'll let you know how it sounds. Would be interesting to compare to Ian's 47 Labs Dac...

I love the look of the 47 Labs stuff and don't doubt that it's well built but I do think the prices are somewhat overblown for what they are.

Michael.
 

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