It says it all to me

Julian,
My main argument is that, sadly, these days hunting seems to be the realm of people who get off on it.
It has gone beyond being a cull and become a pleasure sport for some sick individuals.
 
I've got nowt against killing for food - but I am against factory farming where there's no concern for animal welfare.. That's all driven by supermarkets looking to maximise their profits with not a thought for anything but their shareholders!
FWIW, I buy beef from a m8 with a herd of pedigree Herefords who has them slaughtered at a local family-run abbatoir (and I've been to visit it!) which is as humane as possible. Very little of their meat goes to supermarkets etc, it's all hung for 3 weeks and is actually sold for about the same as supermarket prices for a much better quality of product. Our chicken comes from another local organic farm where they get to have some sort of life before we scoff them.
And as for pesticides, don't even get me started! As a chemist I have a vague idea of the dangers to health, and most of them aren't even necessary. It's supposed to be food, not deadly poison!
And whoever convinced farmers to feed their cattle food-stuffs made from other animals brains should really be subjected to that other old tradition which has sadly died out - the stocks...
 
penance,
hunting (in general) was a way of life of the human race for thousands of years - it still is for some people. if you hunt successfully, you get food to eat and live a bit longer. that should make you happy. i see nothing wrong in hunting at all. i see more bad in 'culling' than in hunting as hunting implies some use for the dead animal - be it food, ceremony or 'just' a trophy. i guess to me hunting implies a form of respect for the hunted animal - pitting your wits against it or using specific tools to find and kill it. whereas culling implies no respect and no concern for the animal at all just that it's in the way of your progress. i personally prefer the former attitude to the latter.
cheers


julian
 
I can see your argument, although its not how I look at it.
Yes culling would be the worse, but again we have brought on the need for this ourselves.
When do people eat fox though?
I wouldnt disagree, that hunting for food is natural, and nothing wrong with it.
 
penance,
as i said in my last response hunting may not just be for food it could be for ceremonial purposes or for trophys. there are plenty of other cultures that require an animal to be hunted and killed for a young man to pass into adulthood or for shamanic ceremonies etc. i don;t see the greeny's protesting these pastimes. perhaps the real problem is that they somehow feel superior to the people who practice 'aproved hunting' and inferior to those who fox hunt, therefore somehow making the former case acceptable to theri small minds. it's really the only thing i can think of that would explain their hipocracy. frankly i consider them slightly idiotic to hold such vociferously espoused double standards up to such public scrutiny. still blair caved in to these hipocrites so we now have to put up with the consequences. what joy.
cheers


julian
 
julian2002 said:
penance,
hunting (in general) was a way of life of the human race for thousands of years - it still is for some people. if you hunt successfully, you get food to eat and live a bit longer. that should make you happy.
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What does Fox taste like Julian ;)
 
Only hunt if you're going to actually eat the bloody thing afterwards, mmkay?

Seriously, you country folk should ditch this out of date hobby and buy mountain bikes or something, that would get the adrenaline flowing, steaming down a hill at 40mph, cant beat it. Better than chasing foxes with a pack of hounds any day.
 
Its the bare faced hypocricy that annoys me.I have only ever heard one huntsmen say he enjoyed it,its his way of life and he wants to carry on doing it.Fair enough,but when they come out with bullshit about pest control,you just have to laugh,like a day out for 50 people is cheaper and quicker than one man and a rifle?

they say we don't undertsand the country,well clearly its because we city folk have O level maths.And on that point,what is all this "they don't understand" the countryside rubbish? I grew up in the countryside and now live in London,and i understand it perfectly.The countryside isn't a complicated alien culture ffs,its a place where there are more fields and people have to plant things,thats it!

puts on Norfolk accent "they don't unnerstand us cundy folk",well,wehn i stp buying mouse traps from B&Q and instead buy 10 dogs to rip them up instead then maybe they will be right
 
Why hunting animals draw so many heated debate in this country? When you next eat another bite of chicken or beef do you give a prayer to the animal? Do you not think it was cruel the animal in your mouth was kept for no other purpose in life then to fed your blood thirsty desire for meat? We could survive without the need to eat meat but still we pretend there are differences how the animal was kill. Did the animal feel and pain when it was kill? Yes it did.

Why do people hunt? Because it is for food. Because of land control. Because of ceremony and tradition. Because it is a sport. There are more reasons. But because above all it is .........................fun for some poeple.

I have never hunt but I have been to fishing. In my eyes it is similar. By hooks and lines or netting. When pulling the fish in did they feel pain? It my eyes by the way they move and trash about I am sure they do no matter what research says. It may or may not be the same type of pain as we human feel but is a living thing after all. All the fishes I have caught are eaten for food but it was purely for pastime and as a hobby. Why am I an evil person? You need to really explain it better then to say in this day and age it is wrong to kill an animal for fun. Why?
 
Hodgesaargh said:
Seriously, you country folk should ditch this out of date hobby and buy mountain bikes or something, that would get the adrenaline flowing, steaming down a hill at 40mph, cant beat it. Better than chasing foxes with a pack of hounds any day.
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That's exactly what I do...
It's 3 miles from my house to a brilliant forest dribbling with the best downhill and singletrack.
Only minor problem is my new suspenion bike doesn't climb the steep stuff as well as my rigid. Still, it makes up for it on the bumps...
 
wolfgang, fox hunting is in the same category as other bloodsports like bullfighting, dog fighting, cock fighting, badger baiting etc. It's putting an animal through extreme pain and eventually death for the "fun" of a few sick people. Somehow, fox hunting is still legal when any other bloodsports are illegal (in the UK).

You can't compare it to eating meat. I'm the first to admit that factory farming and a not always 100% quick and painless death are a bad thing but at least it's done for food. If foxes really were a pest or whatever then a couple of guys with a shotgun or rifle would do a much better job and the fox wouldn't have to endure a frightened, drawn out and painful death to satisfy the bloodlust of a few toffs.

As for it being a tradition, that argument really holds no water. Otherwise why don't we bring back such noble "traditions" as putting people in the stocks or tarring and feathering? Society evolves and as it does so, the more barbaric "traditions" should (and generally do) fall by the wayside. The only reason foxhunting has survived is because it's an upper class thing.

Michael.
 
I agree there is a need to reassess our tradition or hobby in the spirit of the time. Whether foxhunting ala British style is the same as dog figthing is a fair comparion need a bit more debate.

Let play devils advocate. Foxhunting has been single out to be evil since it is a upper class sport but fishing is not purely because it is enjoy by everyone from lower to upper class with the same blood thirsty need to hunt animals. Are we objecting the the lifestyle or purely manner the animal is killed? Foxhunting is a tradition. One where a group of people annually have a get to together foster neigbourhood relations for centuries. I think they are equally effective ways to control the population of pest in the countryside which is being used. The need to give a reason in defend foxhunting is only provided since there are objections. They don't see killing an animal in this manner as barbaric because looking at it from an eye of a farmer it is no more different then slaugthering one with a gun or traps. They are all painful. For what is worth IMHO people object to the spirit that killing an animal should be done during a party. Killing animals should be a done in a quiet and reflective manner. That is an good and honest thought. However, killing livestock by man is a celebration. When you wish to celebrate an occasion we start by killing an animal. Cook it and have a feast.
 
In outer NW London we have quite a few foxes. Do they go around hunting the poor old domestic cats?? Maybe it's time for "urban hunts" blitzing through everyone's back garden. :D
 
Michael as usual put it more concise and eloquently than I could.

Food is one thing.

Do we all want to be veggies? of course not.

I like meat, in this day and age, it has to be 'farmed'.

Would you give up your day jobs to go hunting for food, for days, uncertain if you could find a beast to roast. sure it would be 'fun' wondering if you would get gored by the boar's tusks. the thrill of going back to nature.

but society has evolved and we have to keep these creatures penned in and bred.

It is 'nature' for one animal to prey on another for survival, not for a pastime.

I am not sure if its me, tho the quality of our meat is poor, its tough, unhung, and fatless. society's obsession with having fresh clean meat, grown fast on steroids for pure max. profit, and as healthy as poss.yet another area in England where we get shafted and get piss poor quality for obscene prices.

Perhaps halal and kosher meat ought to be banned if we are concerned about animal cruelty...is cruelty more important than offending a minority culture. hmmm don't know. If its a majority judgement??

For once I actually think Blair is right to ban it, however his means are suspect. Labour is a mix of good bad and indifferent, like all, but he is past his sell buy and is becoming a liablity. (he's put us all at risk for a madman's political personal grudge who has no interest in us, and just acts alone)
 
guys,
cruelty is all around us, the houses we live in were built on some animals habitat, the food we eat is farmed on land that has been cleansed of animals not useful to us. other sports are just as, if not more, cruel than fox hunting and alternative cullling methods such as shooting and poisoning are also not nice either, in fact iirc the most efficient way of culling foxes is to send terriers down their holes to rip them apart so banning hunting hasn't actually changed anything. the ONLY reason there was such a furore over fox hunting is that it is a political hot potato and a lot of people are getting publicity they wouldn't ordinarily get. my main gripe is that peoples livelihoods and an old tradition have been swept away in nothing more than a pr stunt. once again the political process is brought down to the level of pop idol, simon cowel for prime minister i guess....
cheers


julian
 
Julian, banning fox hunting has been on the cards in the UK for some time (before the Labour government even) and this time it was a manifesto promise so at least they're doing what they said they would. I don't really see how you can call it a PR stunt - the people making the most mileage out of it are the head-in-the-sand "countryside lobby" or whatever they're called. All that stuff about fox-hunting being people's livelihoods is just bollox IMO. As for the tradition - who cares? Much as the Daily Mail and it's readers might like it to be the UK isn't stuck in some Merchant & Ivory time warp. It's a modern civilised nation (or at least trying to be).

Michael.
 
In my slightly naive opinion, I think politics is on its head.

Instead of parties acting in their own interests,and giving a manifesto and getting voted in on that basis, there ought to be regular 'choices' for the people, policies drawn up, and people given the chance to vote for which one they want, rather like big referendums. With technology, this can be done now.
So to take the politics out of politics, and make decisions about which people want as a whole, get rid of the self interested politicians, and just have a bunch of administrators proper. (rather than the administrators which run the country now!!)
Its also bizarre that the govt can decide when to hold the election based on how well it thinks it will do.
 
michael,
it's funny how the whole fox hunting thing has cropped up in the wake of the latest iraq furore. what i'm saying is that blair is using this issue to distract attention from more important matters as this is an emotionally charged issue.
sorry, but people will lose their jobs, ok, not all saddlerys and blacksmiths will falter but some do rely on 'the hunt' for a large part of their income. not to mention all the stable lads and dog handlers who will no longer be needed - not to mention the animals themselves. what do you think will happen to them?
lcd,
i'm with you 100% on the referendums / voting. it would certainly be closer to the democratic ideal, however there would have to be full disclosure about the current state of the country which may cause some problems with things like defence spending etc. however a reform in the way the country is govorned is well overdue.
cheers


julian
 
Hi,

In outer NW London we have quite a few foxes. Do they go around hunting the poor old domestic cats?? Maybe it's time for "urban hunts" blitzing through everyone's back garden.
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Last year there were foxes at the back of my garden. I used to see them when I came home from a night of djing. I live in the city, Sheffield. But Sheffield is very green with plenty of open spaces, fields, gardens, parks, hills, rivers, canals, paths, railways & woods inside the city limits. I have seen foxes in the city centre many times. They don't go hunting cats. All the cats around where I live are still there. My neighbours cat didn't seen to bothered at the foxes.

The foxes in the cities feed well on the rubbish laying around. This includes leftover takeaway. I have seen many foxes near where there are a large number of takeaways. Plus there are plenty of mice, rats, birds etc for them to catch & eat.

A bigger problem, as I see it, are rats.

The biggest problem we have, with foxes, is not hitting them in your car. They have no road sense and just dart across the road. I have seen a few dead by the roadside, here in the city.

SCIDB
 

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