Dynamic Turtle
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cougarboy said:
Never assume the dealer has broken anything in properly. I doubt many speakers get proper run-ins, regardless of what they tell you!
DT
Martin Logan Clarity speakers
- Thread starter cougarboy
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Never assume the dealer has broken anything in properly. I doubt many speakers get proper run-ins, regardless of what they tell you!
DT
Dynamic Turtle
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SastusBUlbas - thanks for the tech specs.
1 ohm @ 20khz is scary! Bit misleading to call the 6 ohm speakers IMO. Gives you some idea how much juice they'll want with certain material (i.e. classical - violins etc.)
DT
DT
1 ohm @ 20khz is scary! Bit misleading to call the 6 ohm speakers IMO. Gives you some idea how much juice they'll want with certain material (i.e. classical - violins etc.)
DT
DT
Yes ...ex dem mean they had them out in the show room for a bit an occasionally played [unless your certain of the use]. Mine took in excess of 900hr use [6 months at 5-6 hrs a day]. My room 6m by 4m speakers along the long axis 5m a part [this works for me!].
zanash said:
How can anyone possibly buy speakers on that basis? 'They sound crap now, but give 'em six months and you'll be amazed!' And that's assuming you can listen for 5 or 6 hours a day; two or three would be nearer the mark for me, giving a 12 month burn-in period!
Nah; if speakers can't convince me after a week or so on home dem, back to the shop they go.
Joe said:
Hum, that was my thought too. It's hard enough getting a speaker like this home to demo, let alone not knowing if it needs several weeks/months use before it's sound is representative of its final ability. Besides, on the break-in front the manual suggests the bass response will be reduced for the first 30hrs, and I've already got too much of it!!
I've got about 3-4 days to decide if I'm going to keep these, and on the basis of the current sound I'm going to have to say I couldn't happily live with them.
you plainly have never heard a pair !
The "normal" dealer demo is conducted with an "older" run in pair...the dealer explained at great length about the breakin time, But I suppose not all dealers are not equal.....for the record I used Chantry Audio.
The "normal" dealer demo is conducted with an "older" run in pair...the dealer explained at great length about the breakin time, But I suppose not all dealers are not equal.....for the record I used Chantry Audio.
zanash said:
So the appropriate procedure would be:
1) listen to the 'older' run-in pair at your dealer's; then if you like the sound of them
2) borrow said pair to listen to at home, to make sure they fit in with your room and the rest of your kit, otherwise you're comparing apples to bananas, then if you still like the sound of them
3) buy a new pair.
But why does the manual refer to a 30 hour break-in period if the actual break-in time is a staggering 30 times as long?
i use ML Aerius i with two linn lk280's. before that, i tried the naim amps i had. i found that the naims didnt drive the logans to no where near what they are capable of. with the naims they were dark, shut in, v wooley bass, no top end, no imaging/soundstage. sounded shx**e.
after about a 5second listen with the linns, the logans sounded as they should,(no suprise really as they were intended to drive briks seamlessly) very open, superb mid and top end, very tight bass, excellent s/stage (height, width and depth) and brilliant imaging. they are in a dedicated room with dimensions of 6m x 5m. my advice is change your amp, as a dip to 1.7 ohms and a 4ohm nominal is a struggle.
people with logans do like valves, very natural sounding,and proves that you dont need massive wattage to drive the logans, but you do need a high current ability.
imo, female vocal, guitar and piano sound the best ive heared with the logans, tried my bro's tube technology unisis valve amp the mid/treble was there, but the bass wasnt as tight or as fast as the linns. still drove them well though.
stick with them but try different amps, you will be suprised at the outcome and will guarentee that you'l want to keep the speakers.
after about a 5second listen with the linns, the logans sounded as they should,(no suprise really as they were intended to drive briks seamlessly) very open, superb mid and top end, very tight bass, excellent s/stage (height, width and depth) and brilliant imaging. they are in a dedicated room with dimensions of 6m x 5m. my advice is change your amp, as a dip to 1.7 ohms and a 4ohm nominal is a struggle.
people with logans do like valves, very natural sounding,and proves that you dont need massive wattage to drive the logans, but you do need a high current ability.
imo, female vocal, guitar and piano sound the best ive heared with the logans, tried my bro's tube technology unisis valve amp the mid/treble was there, but the bass wasnt as tight or as fast as the linns. still drove them well though.
stick with them but try different amps, you will be suprised at the outcome and will guarentee that you'l want to keep the speakers.
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bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
the answer seems clear really..... 1) try a big fat amp and see if you like them any better, if not 2) take them back to the shop.
It would be worth asking the shop how long you can demo them for. You dont want to be stuck with something you dont want.
It would be worth asking the shop how long you can demo them for. You dont want to be stuck with something you dont want.
Thanks for all the comments I've had on these ML's. Very helpful.
I had a long session with them last night and came to a few conclusions. I don't think it's an amp issue. I blocked the ports on the bass cabinets and the bass firmed up considerably. Midrange and treble from the els section are superb now I've found a good room position for them.
However, I've concluded that the bass units, imo, are a poor design on the clarity's, and I can't live with them in my current room. The bass is fat and tuneless to my ears. Putting my JMLab Electra's back in place showed this quite clearly; bass was tuneful and taut.
But all is not lost on the Martin Logan front; I've realised that I want to go down the ELS road so I've decided to spend more money (eeks!) and go for a speaker higher up the range, where hopefully the bass design will be less compromised. I'm going to look for a pair of Vista's - they have a much larger ELS panel so hopefully offer more of what the Clarity's provide.
I'll keep you posted as and when I find some...
thanks again,
tom.
I had a long session with them last night and came to a few conclusions. I don't think it's an amp issue. I blocked the ports on the bass cabinets and the bass firmed up considerably. Midrange and treble from the els section are superb now I've found a good room position for them.
However, I've concluded that the bass units, imo, are a poor design on the clarity's, and I can't live with them in my current room. The bass is fat and tuneless to my ears. Putting my JMLab Electra's back in place showed this quite clearly; bass was tuneful and taut.
But all is not lost on the Martin Logan front; I've realised that I want to go down the ELS road so I've decided to spend more money (eeks!) and go for a speaker higher up the range, where hopefully the bass design will be less compromised. I'm going to look for a pair of Vista's - they have a much larger ELS panel so hopefully offer more of what the Clarity's provide.
I'll keep you posted as and when I find some...
thanks again,
tom.
What about trying some small Final's? They are decent sounding and nice looking electrostatics and you could partner them with a small subwoofer. They are better sounding to my ears than the ML's anyway?! In my experience the ML's need really big rooms.
Note that electrostatics have odd impedance curves which drop really low in the treble range and you need an amp that doesn't mind this. Valve amps can work well because they are transformer coupled and don't mind the dips.
Note that electrostatics have odd impedance curves which drop really low in the treble range and you need an amp that doesn't mind this. Valve amps can work well because they are transformer coupled and don't mind the dips.
Just as a follow-up note, ML seem to have noted the problems of matching the bass units to rooms; on their higher end speakers, eg the Vantage, there is a bass level control. From the manual:
On the rear of the Vantage is a knob that control the 35Hz
frequency responses by ±10db. MartinLogan engineers
have found this frequency area (30ââ'¬â€œ50Hz) to be problematic.
Low frequencies tend to react to a room environment
by creating nodes (boomy and unnatural bass) or nulls
(nonexistent bass). By adjusting the 35Hz level knob you
can 'dial out' undesirable nodes or nulls and create a balanced
and seamless presentation.
Wish the Clarity's had that control knob!!
tom.
On the rear of the Vantage is a knob that control the 35Hz
frequency responses by ±10db. MartinLogan engineers
have found this frequency area (30ââ'¬â€œ50Hz) to be problematic.
Low frequencies tend to react to a room environment
by creating nodes (boomy and unnatural bass) or nulls
(nonexistent bass). By adjusting the 35Hz level knob you
can 'dial out' undesirable nodes or nulls and create a balanced
and seamless presentation.
Wish the Clarity's had that control knob!!
tom.
3DSonics
away working hard on "it"
Hi,
Do not limit yourself unneccesarily to ML's. The Inner Sound ESL's are a viable choice as well and some other hybrids (Final) exist, finally, very little (to my idea of good sound) in ESL's beats a pair of Quad 63's withgradient dipole sub especially if you do an Alistair Robertson-Aikman, that is to hang a large, round pillow around 18 - 24" behind the panel, centered.
Ciao T
cougarboy said:
Do not limit yourself unneccesarily to ML's. The Inner Sound ESL's are a viable choice as well and some other hybrids (Final) exist, finally, very little (to my idea of good sound) in ESL's beats a pair of Quad 63's withgradient dipole sub especially if you do an Alistair Robertson-Aikman, that is to hang a large, round pillow around 18 - 24" behind the panel, centered.
Ciao T
3DSonics said:
Yes, I've heard some great sounds from Quad's, sadly I don't have the room size for them, they are a MUCH bigger footprint than the ML's. I like the fact that ML's go vertical so don't swamp much floor space. I'll look at your other suggestions though. Biggest problem is finding dealers to audition this stuff.
tom.
Dynamic Turtle
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Cougar,
Don't understand why you want to try different electrostatics when the problem is clearly the A21.
Sort the amp out first (and if transformer-coupled valve amps have the best impedence handling capabilities, why not try some?) THEN start experimenting with speakers.
I'm guessing that 40wpc KT88 prima luna would be a good start....
DT
Don't understand why you want to try different electrostatics when the problem is clearly the A21.
Sort the amp out first (and if transformer-coupled valve amps have the best impedence handling capabilities, why not try some?) THEN start experimenting with speakers.
I'm guessing that 40wpc KT88 prima luna would be a good start....
DT
Dynamic Turtle said:
What makes you say that? I don't agree, esp not after last night's trials. The only part of an ESL that is a difficult load is the panel. I don't have any probs with the panel output - it's lucid, detailed and spacious. My problem is with the bass response, which I personally think is overblown and poorly voiced on the Clarity's.
And I've decided that if I'm going to spend money on ML's then I want to stretch to the best pair I can rather than buy in at the bottom end of the range (which the Clarity is).
cheers,
tom.
The thing is that the amp 'sees' the whole speaker system as a load, not just the panels. So although the top end may sound OK, it may be battling with the low, low impedance at the top end and this is causing it to run out of puff which would affect the bass quality and tightness. Of course, another good idea that might save your setup is the following:
Get an active crossover, run the speakers down to say 80Hz and fill the bottom in with a good subwoofer.
In my experience, hybrid speakers are a bit of a pain, as the bass driver almost never matches the mids & tops quality and only the most expensive units seem to get it right.
Get an active crossover, run the speakers down to say 80Hz and fill the bottom in with a good subwoofer.
In my experience, hybrid speakers are a bit of a pain, as the bass driver almost never matches the mids & tops quality and only the most expensive units seem to get it right.
