Martin Logan Clarity speakers

[cougarboy]

Get an active crossover, run the speakers down to say 80Hz and fill the bottom in with a good subwoofer.

Interesting idea. It could be worth pursuing, tho sadly I won't have long enough on the trial period to try it.

In my experience, hybrid speakers are a bit of a pain, as the bass driver almost never matches the mids & tops quality and only the most expensive units seem to get it right.

That's definitely the conclusion I've come to, and my reasoning for thinking about buying a better ML model. I may even stretch to the Vantage which has the bass control knob!

 

[raindance]

This is why I suggested the Finals, as they are full range electrostats, so you don't have the driver integration problem. They could still do with a sub... but you wouldn't need a separate active crossover.

 

[cougarboy]

This is why I suggested the Finals, as they are full range electrostats, so you don't have the driver integration problem. They could still do with a sub... but you wouldn't need a separate active crossover.

Thanks, I've taken up your suggestion. Only dealer in the north that has any is in Warrington, but I'm taking a (120mile!!) drive over there on Saturday to hear them. I currently have a REL strata subwoofer, so it could be a good way forward. At least you can tune the REL response.

Never heard any Final's though. Do you have much experience of them?

tom.

 

[Garmt]

The PrimaLuna is a very good amp suggestion. I have never heard ML Scenario sound as good as they did on the PL Two. Also try a more high-current amp, like a Primare. They seem to suit ML to a degree.

I plunked down my ML Vantages and they played brilliantly from day one, with burn-in making them better still... Running in shouldn't change a product from mediocre to brilliant.

Try one more amp and position the speakers at least 3 feet from the rear wall, toe them in slightly and keep them at least 7 feet apart, or they will sound 'confused'. Also, try to get some Nordost Flatline or Blue Heaven to try with them. These cables work very well with ML.

 

[Stereo Mic]

The panel's drawing so much current there's nowt left for the bass driver. So it's wobbly and ill defined. You need a more substantial amp to hear what the ML's are capable of. I'm not saying you will like them then, but don't dismiss them from now to eternity because of a flawed dem with inadequate electronics.

 

[raindance]

Let me know when you are going to Warrington - I'll join you if you like - I live in Lymm, nearby. I'd like to hear the demo too. I don't have vast experience, but remember really liking them at the Manchester S&V show. Which dealer is it?

 

[cougarboy]

The panel's drawing so much current there's nowt left for the bass driver.

I tried them with my older Sugden P28 100w monoblocks, and whilst it was more controlled, I still wasn't convinced by the bass response.

I'm not saying you will like them then, but don't dismiss them from now to eternity because of a flawed dem with inadequate electronics.

Nope, I'm not rejecting, I'm very taken with what ESL's do, but decided to buy the best pair I can rather than start at the budget end. It'll save me hankering after the bigger ones within a few months ! Also going to hear a pair of Final's on somebody's recommendation.

 

[cougarboy]

Let me know when you are going to Warrington - I'll join you if you like - I live in Lymm, nearby. I'd like to hear the demo too. I don't have vast experience, but remember really liking them at the Manchester S&V show. Which dealer is it?

Practical hi-fi, prob Saturday afternoon.

cheers,
tom.

 

[raindance]

E-mail me off-line & we can set something up.

 

[Dynamic Turtle]

Cougar

I'm also interested in hearing how you get on with the Final speakers, as these are on my shortlist too (along with Audiostatic). AFAIK they're just as thirsty as the Logans in terms of power consumption and need a sub with the smaller models, which would be a pain :-(

DT

 

[Garmt]

Using a sub is not a pain. Just use a good one, Velodyne for instance (SPL-R).

 

[Dynamic Turtle]

Using a sub is not a pain. Just use a good one, Velodyne for instance (SPL-R).

IME I've found them extremely difficult to integrate in my room, due to the design & layout (internal walls, pictures, no double glazing, limited placement options etc.) and also very difficult to integrate with CONE speakers, let alone electrostatics, which must be very hard indeed!

Would give it another try though.

DT

 

[cougarboy]

Cougar

I'm also interested in hearing how you get on with the Final speakers

DT

HI, some feedback on the Final's - I heard two demos on Monday at different dealers, but both demos were of the 600PLs. One demo was with Sugden Masterclass amps, the other demo was using the Lyngdorf digital amps (TDA2200). Both seemed to drive the speakers exceptionally well.

Very difficult to make comparisons with the Clarity's, given that I was in unfamiliar rooms etc, but I'd say that if you are looking for an ELS speaker they are equal to the ML's; they are open, fast and transparent. They don't seem too fussy about room positioning, but they have a huge base plinth that takes some accommodating, it has a BIG footprint. From what I've heard, they do need a subwoofer, and Final state they expect them to be used with one. I didn't audition the subs.

I still can't decide if I can live with ELS long term. They are incredibly revealing, but with many CD's I've found that doesn't always equate to musical. I have a lot of CDs that I can't listen to on my demo ML's - they just sound a mess. Some of them happen to be some of my favourite albums too. There can be a thinness to vocals that can border on the irritating

I also demo'd the new JMLab Electra 1007BE's, which I thought were stunning.

Biggest revelation though was the Masterclass amps - these Sugden amps are simply outstanding. An absolute stunner with the Electra's.

In passing I also heard the Dali Euphonia MS4 and the ART Expression v6. They were all extremely impressive in different ways. If I had to make a decision without a home demo, it would be for the JMLabs 1007 (but on the end of the Sugden Masterclass!!)

Still no closer to a final(no pun) decision...

cheers,
tom.

 

[Garmt]

IME I've found them extremely difficult to integrate in my room, due to the design & layout (internal walls, pictures, no double glazing, limited placement options etc.) and also very difficult to integrate with CONE speakers, let alone electrostatics, which must be very hard indeed!

Would give it another try though.

I am combining my MartinLogan speakers with two Velodyne Digital Drive subwoofers (only one is also fantastic) and they integrate seamlessly with the ML.

This is all due to their extremely distortion-free sound and built-in room-eq. The custom made drivers, extremely powerful amps and servo feedback also have an immense impact on performance.

When a sub distorts, it is hard to integrate it well with any other speaker, because the sub will make itself heard because it creates harmonics of the original bass sound, easily reaching into the frequency range where you can pin-point sounds.

Really, the Velodyne Digital Drive is quite an achievement in subwoofers.

 

[Dynamic Turtle]

HI, some feedback on the Final's - I heard two demos on Monday at different dealers, but both demos were of the 600PLs. One demo was with Sugden Masterclass amps, the other demo was using the Lyngdorf digital amps (TDA2200). Both seemed to drive the speakers exceptionally well.

Very difficult to make comparisons with the Clarity's, given that I was in unfamiliar rooms etc, but I'd say that if you are looking for an ELS speaker they are equal to the ML's; they are open, fast and transparent. They don't seem too fussy about room positioning, but they have a huge base plinth that takes some accommodating, it has a BIG footprint. From what I've heard, they do need a subwoofer, and Final state they expect them to be used with one. I didn't audition the subs.

I still can't decide if I can live with ELS long term. They are incredibly revealing, but with many CD's I've found that doesn't always equate to musical. I have a lot of CDs that I can't listen to on my demo ML's - they just sound a mess. Some of them happen to be some of my favourite albums too. There can be a thinness to vocals that can border on the irritating

I also demo'd the new JMLab Electra 1007BE's, which I thought were stunning.

Biggest revelation though was the Masterclass amps - these Sugden amps are simply outstanding. An absolute stunner with the Electra's.

In passing I also heard the Dali Euphonia MS4 and the ART Expression v6. They were all extremely impressive in different ways. If I had to make a decision without a home demo, it would be for the JMLabs 1007 (but on the end of the Sugden Masterclass!!)

Still no closer to a final(no pun) decision...

cheers,
tom.

Cheers for the review Tom,

Glad to hear the Final's sound like electrostats! Not glad to hear about the large base plinth - they definitely aren't photographed with these! I've hear that their small/medium sized models need a sub too, which is bad news for me. Couldn't get away with the larger models either - housemates would complain!

Interesting comments re transparency. IMO this is more often than not a bad thing. Assuming that only a small fraction (say 20%) of my music collection is "well-recorded", do I really want speakers that are going to murder the other 80%? Had this problem with CD players in the past - sometimes they were too revealing for their own good. I'm definitely more in the warm/euphonic/musicality camp than the "hi-fi" camp......

...which makes your fondness of Focal speakers seem a bit strange to me. IME these are definitely about "hi-fi" and not musical presentation. Last pair I owned were way to strident/revealing/bright (and this was with a super-smooth Pathos amp). Not designed with valve amp users in mind either, afaik.

Bit of a conundrum really. I want the smooth, airy treble of ESL57's with the punch & timing of standmounts. ESL57's are too ugly and have too large a footprint, ML's are thirsty and struggle to integrate properly, Final's need a subwoofer, Ribbon tweeters have narrow dispersion and rarely integrate properly....

....the list of compromises goes on.

TBH I have the same sort of problem as you - I'm really struggling about where to go next with my speakers. Obviously 20wpc SET's aren't the last word in flexibility, but they're the heart of my system and aren't going anywhere.

Sort of drifting towards ribbon tweeter standmounts, as these may offer the least damaging mix of compromises. Not many examples around though. I do remember seeing some standmounts with electrostatics tweeters once upon a time. They looked a bit weird of course. Has anyone else seen/heard these?

DT

 

[Dynamic Turtle]

I am combining my MartinLogan speakers with two Velodyne Digital Drive subwoofers (only one is also fantastic) and they integrate seamlessly with the ML.

This is all due to their extremely distortion-free sound and built-in room-eq. The custom made drivers, extremely powerful amps and servo feedback also have an immense impact on performance.

When a sub distorts, it is hard to integrate it well with any other speaker, because the sub will make itself heard because it creates harmonics of the original bass sound, easily reaching into the frequency range where you can pin-point sounds.

Really, the Velodyne Digital Drive is quite an achievement in subwoofers.

Well, I've only heard good things about these velodyne DD subs and I think Emporium was using one of these with ESL57's at Heathrow. Not cheap though, and I simply don't have the placement options or floorspace to accomodate something like that.

Would also make quite a convincing fist of DTS shenanigans for home cinema too of course!

DT

 

[cougarboy]

Cheers for the review Tom,

Glad to hear the Final's sound like electrostats! Not glad to hear about the large base plinth - they definitely aren't photographed with these!

If you look at the review here you might spot one:

http://www.final.nl/downloads/High End Final Sound 600i.pdf

On last page, although it seems even bigger in the flesh than in that photo. Maybe they've changed the design.

I've hear that their small/medium sized models need a sub too, which is bad news for me.

They produce pretty clean bass down to about 70hz, I could live with that, but for full performance you'd want a sub. They don't sound lean, you just don't get the deep bass.

...which makes your fondness of Focal speakers seem a bit strange to me.

I'm very fussy about speakers, but I've always found the overall balance offered by the higher end JMlabs to be very good. I find they have a very clean treble, which I like. With Sugdens amps they don't sound harsh to my ears.

Bit of a conundrum really. I want the smooth, airy
treble of ESL57's with the punch & timing of standmounts.

Yes, that's the goal! I've definitely not found it yet, but the 1007Be's came very close, with compromises I could live with. They disappeared during listening, the way that ESL's tend to. Finding speakers is such a chore. Nothing tells the story like a home demo, but organising them can be a total headache, if you can actually find a dealer to offer one. I can't get anyone to do a home demo on the Final's.

The ART v6 Expression is supposed to be a very balanced natural sounding speaker, and well suited to SET, but they didn't stand-out in a shop demo. I think you'd have to live with them to appreciate their strengths. Superb tweeter unit on them. I;m talking myself into them now... maybe I'll home demo them.

tom.

 

[Dynamic Turtle]

Hmmm, 70hz is a bit high IMO. My signums are -3dB @ 50hz and I wouldn't want an higher than that. Still, I suppose you could get it a smidgen lower with careful positioning? Also, the plinths don't look too obtrusive, relative to their height.
I'll have to take your word for it re focal's Be tweeters. I've only heard good things about them but have a pyschological block & preconcpetions about Focal now. Also, they're UGLY speakers and you loose an absolute packet on them if you ever want to sell them on. They're also guilty of releasing ugrades/improvements every 18 months, which I find infuriating. Am curious about the model you mention though, and how it stacks up against the competition.
Not really familiar with ART speakers tbh. A lot of hype over about them in the Wigwam, but the Emotions were totally under-whelming with £30k's worth of Naim at Heathrow. They use a standard silk dome tweeter don't they?

 

[cougarboy]

Am curious about the model you mention though, and how it stacks up against the competition.

If you can get to hear a pair, esp on the end of your valve amps, I think you'd be very impressed.

and you loose an absolute packet on them if you ever want to sell them on

I wish that were true, it might mean I could afford to buy some Micro Utopia's second hand!! And as for UGLY - I think the 1007Be's are might handsome (as far as speakes go...!).

They use a standard silk dome tweeter don't they?

The ART v6 uses a Seas Crescendo apparently:
http://www.seas.no/Product bilder/e0040.htm

Yes, I believe it's a fabric dome, though don't know much about it other than they're very expensive!

cheers,
tom.

 

[Dynamic Turtle]

If you can get to hear a pair, esp on the end of your valve amps, I think you'd be very impressed.


I wish that were true, it might mean I could afford to buy some Micro Utopia's second hand!! And as for UGLY - I think the 1007Be's are might handsome (as far as speakes go...!).


The ART v6 uses a Seas Crescendo apparently:
http://www.seas.no/Product bilder/e0040.htm

Yes, I believe it's a fabric dome, though don't know much about it other than they're very expensive!

cheers,
tom.

I s'pose the 1007 's are OK looking for Focal's, but you're talking to a Sonus Faber fanboy here and there aren't many speakers that can match them for beauty

Lack of brand presence & constant "improvements" seem to put a damper on used prices for JMlabs gear, but maybe the latest Be models will hold their value better?

Seas drivers? Cool! Loving the Millenium Exel on the Jamo's I heard recently. Awesome stuff! Don't talk to me about driver costs - the tweeter (scan-speak) on my signums cost £153 to replace!

DT