[QUOTE=Ultrasonic]I aint gonna use terms like Murder or slaughter as i find them abit OTT when talking about speakers... [/QUOTE] In almost every case I find people enormously exaggerate differences, and I'd normally agree with you. However, from what I heard in my 783 / 21L comparison, the term "murder" is appropriate in this case. :) Each to his own of course, and YMMV. And like you say the 783s weren't necessarily the best in the 78 series (although they were Diapason's [like Gramophone only French] 'best speakers of 2000'), but they're the only ones which gave enough bass weight for my tastes. Shame they were pretty poor otherwise. :p