More HiFi+ snake oil promotion

I've been writing my reply to this thread offline so apologies for changing the tack slightly.

I didn't know that JC was involved in the Vertex AQ products but that doesn't change my view of them as extremely unlikely to do much of any great significance.

Perhaps I ought not to have started three threads ("RG has lost it", "Audiopiles vs Scientists" and this one) which all have some anti-cable bias but over the last month or so I've become gradually disillusioned with the whole cable thing and seeing good and respected mags like HiFi+ tout ever more expensive cable solutions with not the slightest justification (scientific or otherwise) for their cost is starting to get on my nerves.

I started to reflect on my own experiences with cables in my system and other peoples systems and came to the conclusion that I don't think I've ever heard any kind of cable ever make a difference that I think I could pick out in a...here we go again...DBT. Whilst I have reservations about DBTing I think that there is no reason that any difference that is more than subtle shouldn't be readily identifiable in a DBT. To put it another way, without getting into DBTs, I don't think I've ever heard any kind of cable ever make a difference that I would describe as anything more than subtle and that I couldn't be sure I wasn't imagining.

I still remember the first time I tested some cables. 3 sets of ICs. VDH D102MkIII, MF NuVista with Bullets, MF NuVista originals and even a pair of freebie plastic plug jobbies. I didn't hear any difference at all and I was using my Aracm A22 to switch inputs whilst listening to a track (my DAC20 of the time had dual analog outputs) so it was as close a comparison as is possible. I posted about that in the Portuguese hifi forum I take part in and António (Lowrider) suggest I try the tests out on his system. At the time I reported that I did then hear differences but if I'm honest with myself I don't think I really did. When you have someone next to you describing in great detail the differences they think they heard it's hard to admit that you heard no difference

Since then I added Eupen power cords to my system which I think made a noticeable improvement but again, when I think about it honestly I'm not sure the change wasn't my imagination. When I changed my speaker cable from Dynaudio OCOS to Townshend Isolda DCT I also can't honestly say I noticed any difference. The one single recent cable change where I did notice a differnence that was definitely not imaginary was when switching from using RCA coax to using TOSLink in connecting my transport to my DAC64. The improvement was quite marked. However, here we're talking about a completely different method of transmission, not to mention electrical isolation in the case of TOSLink so there are good scientific reasons why a difference might exist.

In short I reckon I've been, to some extent, suckered into the whole cable myth becuase it's so hard not to be when everyone around you and all magazines now take it as accepted fact that cables can make a huge difference. I'm not saying that cables necessarily make no difference at all but I simply can't accept the incredible claims that many people are making for them. The same goes for all other tweaks that exist which have absolutely no credible scientific basis to them. I'm henceforth not going to comment on the sonic benefits (or otherwise) of cables and everyone should disregard any comments I've made in the past about cables as I now find the judgements may not have been reliable

A second issue is the extortionate, bordering on criminal, prices that some cables go for. One thing thing is making a quality product with decent thick conductors and a nice quality jacket and charging a bit more for it than you're average bellwire freebie IC. Another thing is charging several hundred, or even several thousand pounds for something that is still, your basic metal conductor, some PTFE and a nice looking jacket. I'm sorry, it's just not on. In a dog eat dog world I suppose it's fine if Nordost et al want to exploit people mug enough to pay £1750 for a mains cable - doesn't prevent it from being immoral though. People can go on about R&D costs etc. but what how the hell do they R&D something when they don't (by their own admission) know how it works? One can only assume that thier "R&D" consists purely of trial and error. Eupen power cables at least make a specific claim (to reduce mains borne EMI and RF interfernce) which is backed up by scientific evidence.

On the issue of HiFi+, I still think it's one of the best, if not the best hifi mag out there. I'm not having a go at it in general. HiFi News is my other favourite but they also came up with an absolute classic in their April edition: in Ivor Humphreys' short review of the Alner Hamblin MF101 mains cleaning distribution block he comes out with "The differences are significant, on the verge of exceeding subtle." In my book at least, "significant" is way beyond subtle.

That, folks was my inauguration speech into the league of sceptics

Michael.

 

Some interesting points I think.

In response to ReJoyce request to submit all criticism to HIFI+ - ...

I would say that this is a public forum, and no thread is ever edited that I have seen - unless it is nasty or vindictive in some way. A letter to hifi+ will be subject to the editorial control of the recipient himself!! - who can edit a letter, and put any kind of reply he/she would want to with no fear of retort/reply being published.

I would instead ask RG to defend himself here on the forum, and explain why his reviews exagerate benefits above and beyond any semblance of reality.

In regard of the ''argos catalogue'' I was referring to ''Audiophile Candy'' magazine. If you havent seen it - its a shopping catalogue for hifi bits.

RG reccomends specific products WITHIN THIS FREE CATALOGUE - therefore to my mind compromising his journalistic integrity. He appears to be a 'gun for hire' instead of an independant journalist/editor.

I also find Paul Messengers columns more grounded and sensible, like Ian does.

Another ''feature'' of HIFI+ that hasnt been mentioned before (but is SO TRUE)... WHEN they find themselves in the unfortunate position of having to say something less than positive about a product - we always get '' Its a bad review sample, there is a flaw'' .... and then a month or so later ... ''Problem fixed!! it really is an AMAZING PRODUCT!''???

I dont believe any assertion that review samples are so frequently poor, and point the finger instead at a journalistic RELUCTANCE to say anything bad, even when vindicated.


RG's response in the past to such claims as those made by myself and others always goes along the lines of '' its HIFI+'s policy to only review components which it can reccomend, so therefore there are never any bad reviews''.

This above view is hysterically limited IMO. Even when cherry-picking, the best of products show severe limitations. I can name limitations with ANY product Ive ever tried, including a few ''award winners'' on the HIFI+ circuit. If I can do such a simple thing, why cant hifi+?????

I think the answer either lies in some combination of..- 1) reluctance to criticise 2) genuine lack of reviewing ability 3) inabililty to self-edit


I wouldnt want to appear all negative.

The pictures are class-leading.
The paper/binding/ colour pigmentation all very good.
The letters page is good.
Excellent products can be read about here.
Interviews with manufacturers are a good idea.
The album reviews are very good, but should be linked with music-samples on the website whenever possible.

Chris

 

Bingo. Welcome to the club, Brother Michael. Membership has its privileges, financial mainly.

-- Ian

 

Michael,

Brave of you to 'come out' so to speak!

Could you do one thing for me though. To see whether you really have been cured from the cable bug, would you remove all of the eupens from your system (and your Olson block), going back to stock power leads. Also put the cheapest interconnects and loudspeaker cables you can lay your hands on back in (FFRC?)

Then live with the system this for a couple of weeks and come back and tell us if you are listening more/less, or are happy/unhappy with the sound. If you are able to live long term using stock cables then I would say you are well and truly deaf err cured

 

Mike, just preform one last test for me please, ytake out all the cables, and put all the stock ones back in for a week, then go back to what you have now.
If you notice no difference at all, I'll buy the drinks next time we meet. Tone

 

Tone,

Ha Ha, beat you to it

 

Tony, Ive just performed the test.

I replaced all my cables - speaker, interconnect and mains with freebies.

I could hear no difference.

Now then, you have to buy all the drinks!!!!!!

 

Actually, I quite like the smell. It reminds me of the 'Janet and John' books from my primary school days.

Can I bags the expensive stuff?

 

OK Chris, was that in your current system ?
So the difference you 'claim to have heard on your last visit on the I/c swop was physco acoustic then ?, the same when mike was shocked by the trichord power block, when I took off the belcanto?.
Mike, sell all your cables, I have some ffrc I'll give F.O.C. (untouched) and some gws i/c's, and buy a load of music, then hit the bars for a good nite out.

 

umm

Steve, since they sounded the same, I put them all back in, just to be sure.

Tone still owes me 3 bottles of whiskey and a crate of lager though

 

Chris, do the test again in the morning, if stilll the same sell all your cables and get some music, and I'll buy the beer

 

I've been doing this for years, and revert back every time I've had the chance to try an expensive IC or mains cable. Surely you must owe me several crates of malt...

-- Ian

 

trickster!!

you never said owt about selling.

you owe me loads of beer.

its official

 

I too am inaugurated into the league of sceptics.

I don't believe that ZG members really believe cables don't make a difference.

 

Every HIFI, never mind cable, that i have listened to in the last couple of months, has sounded the same.

I think i am owing a brewery.

 

Hey, who am I stand in the way of conversions, Bub will be renouncing mana next, and I'll believe naim is the one true light.
Might explain why mike bought a dac 64 though, conclusive proof he's deaf
to quote a famous pharse' Buddy holy, what a loss, what a loss'
we salute you, as the sun goes down, and the passing mourned, we will remeber them. Adious' mon amigo

 

Michael,

Yes there is a common theme running along all three posts, (did you trip over speaker wires or something?) but you are within your rights to bring them to the fore. Cables are now not only being priced as high as the equipment they are supposed to be connecting, but they are also now being regarded as main equipment. Also, given the profits vs capital expenditure available in the cable industry, it's easy to see why cable sharks are springing up everywhere like mushrooms.

You will note that you are not the only one raising such concerns. A few hardcore HFN reviewers, Ken Kessler, John Crabbe etc have also been adding their own comments to the debate and also there is one taking place on AV forums. It was Ken Kessler who unsuccessfully tried to review the Audioquest DBS cables (battery-equipped) cables and suggested that he had the equivalent of a cable induced breakdown. He also said: “I found myself screaming and cursing and generally freaking out in my sound roomâ€Â. I wonder what happened, in Ken's sound room though. Perhaps the batteries on the cables were flat or he was not using my personal favourites, Duracell. But whatever the reason, it would be good to know what freaked him out. He went on further to say:“No Review Of Wire Has Any Validity Beyond The System In Which It Is Reviewedâ€Â. Now those are pretty strong words from one of the U.K.s most senior reviewers and for once, that line did not come from me.

Such debates are now growing in intensity as every day, some new cable merchants arrive on the scene claiming to have found the magic solution that their competitors missed. Soon, Zerogain's own WM will be offering his cables with Duracell batteries attached via anti-RFI elastic bands and no doubt, some technical mumbo, jumbo thrown-in to impress. So it is right to bring such debates out into the open. IMO, there are only a handful of cable companies whose products do anything for the sound of the equipment. The rest, IMO, are also-rans and are just in it for rich the pickings to be had from gullible audiophiles. Anyway, I still regard obscene cable pricing as 'enterprising' rather than 'profiteering' as audiophile cables are not like HIV tablets which to HIV patients are a necessity. Audiophile cables are luxury items. Just so you know where I stand, I believe that cables do make a difference but not to the extent that cable merchants and magazines would like us to believe.

P.S. Agreed. HiFi+ is the best of a bad bunch given their reviews of obscure products that many of the others have not even heard of, the quality of the print-work and photos (HFN, take note) and their music reviews. It seems that they haven't forgotten what it's all about. Btw, hat's off to you for speaking your mind like that. Your latex balaclava for the DBTs is in the post and your application the Music Lovers Club will be processed with speed.




Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

well, seeing as my free-piss-up shenanigans didnt seem to work, might as well come clean.

Ive heard differences with speaker cables. They were enough to make me spend 100 pounds. No regrets really, but no desire at all to push it further. Any future speaker cable change would purely and only be to do with them being too short, should I move house or whatever.

Ive heard differences with interconnects. Ive spent about tenner per interconnect, although I guess theyre worth round about 60 each. I have zero desire to do anything else, to be honest they are similar to the moulded monster cables I had before sound wise. I dont think I'll ever buy new interconnects. Or change them.

WM's interconnects sounded very different to each other. One was loads better than the other. I only heard one WM cable vs another WM cable in WM's system, so I feel I am too ignorant of WM cable per se to comment. I tried an old and early WM cable years ago. It was very good, but I felt I could get more differences from kit changes- and to be fair I think I have.

Mains cables - bought some excess stock from 'audiophile candy' magazine. I had to make them myself. Cost about 15-20 each, they retailed at 60 each. Big fat waste of time, in retrospect, gimme 100 pounds back. Not to say mains cables cant work.. Just that I cant be arsed with them.. and I dont feel Im missing anything from demos Ive had. This level of subtlety is small to me. People brought mains cables to a bake off at mine once. Eupens and stuff didnt seem to do much. Perhaps thats something to do with valves. If valves mean you dont need to arse about with cables, then I guess I like valves even more!! (is that possible>!>!)

I guess I have a foot in each camp, but a wallet in the yet-to-be-convinced sceptic side!

Getting back to original topic, according to hifi +, a cable change is a stratospheric change akin to going from horn speakers to 50 quid gale speakers. Do even the BIGGEST cable fans agree with this level of hyperbole?


Chris

 

:respect:

Wellcome to the wonderful life of reformed audiophile who believe in the Art of Critical Listening (versions of DBT).

I could see members here practise very strict 'peers reviews'.

 

Just wait until they start giving him wedgies and flicking chewing gum at him...

-- Ian