Musing following some cable posts...

I certainly do. It's boring not being given straight answers to simple questions. But I think we're getting somewhere now, Effem has started to post some evidence. It's just a shame for him that it contradicts his case :-)

-- Ian
 
sideshowbob said:
Wow, your comprehension really is very poor. In the absence of any substantiation, the phenomena (perceived differences between electrically identical cables) is most commonsensically presumed a placebo/expectancy effect, rather than something in need of dis-proof. Clear enough for you? In other words, give the cable sceptics (who are, after all, in the mainstream as far as scientific knowledge goes) something substantiated to disprove, rather than postulating an effect and then demanding they provide evidence to show that it's not entirely in your head. This is ABC stuff.

-- Ian
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There is an effect, can you not see that? If there was NO effect at all then placebo and expectation would never be called up to counter-claim what isn't there in the first place.

So why aren't you ringing my doorbell right now demanding the cheque if there is no effect at all??
 
Effem said:
There is an effect, can you not see that? If there was NO effect at all then placebo and expectation would never be called up to counter-claim what isn't there in the first place.
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A perception is not the same thing as a real effect. One is in your head, the other is measurable. People claim all sorts of things all the time, in the absence of evidence there is no reason to believe the claim. For example, I once had a friend who thought he was a viking, in the sense that he really believed he was the living embodiment of a real viking. Now, I could have come up with some test to try to establish his claim was false, but it seemed more sensible to point out that the burden of proof was on him to demonstrate his claim was true. He did this by dressing as a viking and drinking nothing but mead, he even got a job working in a castle. I still didn't believe he was a viking, but at least he tried. He did rather better than you have.

-- Ian
 
Effem said:
I remember one Rottweiler of a cable cynic I used to have epic battles with on another forum who would relinquish his last breath rather than admit publicly that cables make any difference at all. A little birdie told me a while ago that whenever he upgraded any of his system components he would insist on a set of expensive sooper dooper cables as part of the transaction from the dealer for buying the new kit. Hearsay I know but it doesn't surprise me in the least.
Click to expand...
So you start off your arguments in this thread with a rather dubious dig at someone who is nameless and without a shred of anything to back it up other than heresay from a small bird!

Effem said:
New alloys are being formulated now that move well away from the sameyness sounds of just copper or just silver wrapped in familiar dielectrics
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You go on to not answer this statement you made.

Effem said:
there are some cable manufacturers that publish objective measurements for all their products, there are some cable manufacturers that have conducted double blind ABX tests.
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Or This one.

I have just looked at your website for the first time and found this gem.
"All products are designed and destined for sale in countries outside of the EU. Buyers within the EU should be aware that the products have not been CE marked, although they do conform to our own high safety standards using BSI approved components." .
So you are selling NON-CE approved products. Nice!

Remind me not to purchase anything from you as it will invalidate my home and contents insurance.

I can see why some people make the comments they do.
 
Ian,

I see you have old Tannoy speakers, nice...

You did choose them based in measurements and DBT, I am sure they measure better than the competition...

Could you please show us the manufacturer's measurements and the reports of those WBT, we are all waiting...

Also for your amplifier and source, why not your cables too...
 
From 7 pages back:

sideshowbob said:
My view (and I've stated it often enough, your reading comprehension is nearly as bad as melorib's), is that people should buy exactly what they like, for whatever reason, and ignore what anyone else thinks. In other words, I have a different attitude towards those who sell snake oil than to those who buy it.
Click to expand...

I'm a complete subjectivist when it comes to choosing hifi, I buy based on what pleases me, and am happy for everyone else to do exactly the same. It's people making unprovable claims I'm bothered about. I make no claims for my hifi other than that I enjoy it, not a claim that needs proof.

This is an elementary point, one I have made repeatedly in many threads over the year, and should be within even your limited grasp.

Do you follow now?

If you want to read comprehensive measurements for Tannoy DC drivers, you can find a set by Noel Keywood in an issue of Hi-Fi World last year, btw. Or, you can find reams of information here:

http://www.hilberink.nl/speaker.htm

There really is no secret or mystery about the performance characteristics of Tannoy drivers, it's all in the public domain.

More to the point, nobody doubts speakers sound different, people can repeatedly identify speaker differences in ABX tests. This is rather different to the situation with cables.

-- Ian
 
There, you said it again
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There's no room for doubt in your mind? No consideration that what you believe you hear may be affected by factors other than the actual sound you experience? You realise you are denying a hundred years of well-founded science?

Paul
 
Ian I am sorry I broke the rules. For this you have a complete and full apology from me.

I misunderstood your initial reply I didnt think you wanted a actuall apology untill you actually stated you wernt talking to me

IMO The difference between saying to someone in this group "Wow, your comprehension really is very poor" and being offensive as I was to you is quite small. I will learn from this.


Andy
 
ADPully said:
Ian I am sorry I broke the rules. For this you have a complete and full apology from me.

I misunderstood your initial reply I didnt think you wanted a actuall apology untill you actually stated you wernt talking to me

IMO The difference between saying to someone in this group "Wow, your comprehension really is very poor" and being offensive as I was to you is quite small. I will learn from this.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your apology, which is accepted.

No doubt criticising someone's reading comprehension is a bit rude, but in the circumstances, of repeatedly failing to get an answer to very direct and straightforward questions, it's much less rude than it could have been. But if Effem was offended by it, I am happy to retract it. The primary case stands, though.

-- Ian
 
Well this thread as gone on for quite awhile. The thread starter has been very quiet hasnt he. Tried to contact him and no reply. Must have gone away me thinks. I thought something was amiss when the comments dried up. It seems we may have been set up. Nice one Pete. Well the skeptics keep saying we are delusioned but really arent they the ones that are. The brain processes the sounds the ears are only the vessels. This possibly proves that the non believers are short of them. Jim.
 
I couldn't believe I just read the whole 14 and a half pages of cables war! It's a bit like a Cyrus demo, entertaining at first then it's just become boring!
As for myself, I am using KK Sterling 2.
Can I hear any different from other cables? Yes, but I have no need to prove it to anyone. Afterall it's my cash, if I want to spend it for what ever reason that make me happy....it's up to me.
happy listening and be nice to each other.

Ob1
 
Jimbo said:
Well this thread as gone on for quite awhile. The thread starter has been very quiet hasnt he. Tried to contact him and no reply. Must have gone away me thinks. I thought something was amiss when the comments dried up. It seems we may have been set up. Nice one Pete. Well the skeptics keep saying we are delusioned but really arent they the ones that are. The brain processes the sounds the ears are only the vessels. This possibly proves that the non believers are short of them. Jim.
Click to expand...


Pete mentioned to me that he was going to be away for a few days.

I feel very sure he will have an opinion on anything audio. I'm not a betting man but I would put half a sixpence on that, don't you worry.
 
I had always believed in cables but now im not so sure.

I have just done a small scientific experiment involving a Esound CD-E5 , A pc with an EMU0404 Pci soundcard , Some throw away 5m phones , Cambridge audio £30 cables , Analog Research £150 cables and some home made pure silver cables.

The Soundcard and CD player have exactly the same sound balance bar slightly more spacial sound from the CD, I know this because of A/B tests using both analog and digital connections. For this experiment I used the Analogue outs on the CD and a digi cable running to the SPDIF input on the soundcard and used the 44khz sample rate.

So I swapped the CD players £150 cables out and threw in £30 cables - guess what - no difference.

I swapped out the £30 ones and threw in throw away things - guess what - no difference.


I decided to use a £10 5m composite cable between the CD player and the Digi in on the Emu0404 and guess what - No difference.

This system isnt just thrown together any old way by the way , I have great imaging and good soundbalance at moment.

Amp is a Dussun V8i and speakers are TDL Studio 0.75m with the metal drivers , connected with nordost speaker cables.

Im quite dissapointed I couldnt really tell a difference , I was hoping for more.

I guess if something is to be learned from this is that a great £60 soundcard like the EMU 0404 can hold its head up with Cd players in the £500-£1200 price range.
 
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grivois said:
This simply isn't true. As an example, Mogami list 18 mic cables, which have very different LCRs, and these are typical of those used for audio I/Cs: http://www.mogamicable.com/Bulk/micr_cables/low_perfor/low_perf.htm
Click to expand...

I was referring to the measurements done in Hifi News of audio cables. The differences (as in your pdf) are trivial and do not account for frequency response differences. These measurements do not account for what is reported to be heard. So the measurements done are too crude or the heard differences are incorrect. If you look at the work of Hawksford I think you should see that the 'simple' theories are just that 'simple theories' and LCR tests do not differentiate enough.
 
Ian,

My problem with ABX is its inconsistency. These tests have shown no differences in amps, have you not heard differences in amps?

Still at least we can agree on Tannoy speakers;)

So as I understand it you agree that there may be cable differences but they are so subtle it ain't worth the money and there is no 'scientific proof' of these differences. Or am I misinterpreting your views.

I also agree that there is some real bollox spoken by some cable manufacturers, but not all. And as you know Nordost make their own cables (and some wizzy ones for NASA) as does Supra but it ain't half expensive to do, could be why they are expensive, unless you go for mass produced stuff.
 

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