My Rega P5 dem

Too right

When I think back to 1978 when I got my first ever turntable (an SR222) and remember how many turntables there were on the market - certainly those which were worth buying - we've never had it as good as we have it now. It's wonderful

Oh....the old JBE v LP12 argument. How that used to rage on

 

Gromit,

Since you expressed interest when I suggested the Xerxes, here is some relevent background.

The Xerxes has a rather interesting history to it, some might even characterize it as notorious. It originally came out in the mid-'80s and was hailed at the time as a real LP12-beater. The Xerxes' design incorporated squishy sorbothane-like polymer pods Roksan called “blobs†in lieu of springs so the suspension exhibited better damping and control and was much less fiddly to set up than the Linn.

Like the LP12, the Xerxes boasted a precision aluminum platter/subplatter interface. The platter of the Xerxes, however, concentrated the vast majority of its mass onto its periphery so that the total inertia that the record saw was actually higher whilst giving its innovatively-thin, single-point bearing less mass to cope with. The spindle had a unique removable cap. Once the record was centered, the cap could be removed so that the album was even further isolated from any residual spindle-shaft vibrations during play.

The motor sat upon its own isolated bearing and was allowed to rotate freely upon its axis in response to changing drag on the stylus while negotiating transients. Consequently, belt tension remained constant and optimum torque was maintained at all times. I also believe that the Xerxes was one of the first belt-drives to offer an offboard PSU to provide power and control speed. Finally, the armboard and the platter bearing were further isolated from the motor and surrounding plinth via a peninsular-shaped cutout in the top-plinth.

So, back in the day, the Xerxes became renown for combining the pace and rhythmic drive of the LP12 with the detail retrieval and dynamic clarity found in the Michells or Oracle Delphi. But the LP12 had the last laugh, as it were, as many of the original Xerxes developed a “sag†in that top-plinth cutout area under the stress of heavier tonearms or exposure to temperature extremes. In some cases, the sag was so pronounced that the platter would eventually scrape against the plinth, rendering the afflicted deck essentially useless. To make matters worse, Roksan for many years denied that any design flaw existed. But word got around, of course, and the company discontinued the Xerxes in the early '90s.

The damage caused by the plinth-sag issue was seemingly irreparable to Roksan's reputation, and persists even to this day. (Look on any of the forums and you won't find many nice words written about even the current Xerxes, but mostly a lot of bitching about the flawed design of the original.) Nonetheless, the company reorganized on a number of occasions and quietly went about offering other turntables while shifting their focus to electronics and loudspeakers, including their well-received Caspian and Kandy series of CD players and amplifiers.

In the late '90s, Roksan introduced the Xerxes X (10), which finally solved the sagging issue while further adding a third plinth at the deck's base for even greater isolation. Roksan also began acknowledging the plinth-sag issue of the original Xerxes and offered a serviceable fix for it (although many still consider it insufficient) as well as a trade-up program to the Xerxes X.

I was a die-hard Rega owner for the last 20-odd years. If you read my earlier posts in this thread (with links to other posts on PFM), you'll see that I was trying to upgrade along the Rega path in fits and starts. At the end of the day, however, I began noticing that the signature Rega sound, while perfectly acceptable up to a point, was essentially unchanged with the exception of some refinement up through their range. The P25 brought a little more refinement than the P3 and the P7 brought a lot more refinement than the P25. But the sound remained essentially the same.

The real excitement on my journey only began when I took the advice of a friend and found an original Xerxes in pristine condition that had recently been fully serviced by Roksan, including their fix for the top-plinth (which had never been an issue with this deck anyway). I hopped on a Ferry to England, demoed the Xerxes against the seller's LP12 and returned home realizing I'd found a diamond in the rough. Subsequently, this Xerxes also emerged triumphant when pitted against both a Rega P25 and P7. For me it's been like re-awakening to vinyl after 20 years lost in the wilderness: quick, musical, fluid, organic, I could go on and on! (as I fear that I have :SLEEP: )

So now Roksan are poised to unleash the Xerxes XX (20), which features a new FOURTH (!), grounded plinth (see here) and probably their new platter mat (see here). I just have to try it, since I'm really looking for THE turntable that will last me for the next 20 years. I expect to demo it in a few weeks and if it's the winner that I'm expecting it to be, I'll pass along my original Xerxes to some other lucky fellow.

Even though I've been going back and forth here with Merlin about the VPI, etc., I believe we are in agreement that great tables need to be heard, not just discussed. So I'd encourage you to demo the VPI Scout as well, if you can (not an option for me as they have no representation in Belgium) and let us all know how you fare.

Best of luck , Dex

 

Wow! What can I say??

Many thanks Dex for the Xerxes heads-up - that's very informative. I'd heard about this suspension 'sag' and wondered what the fuss was about. Also remembering the review of the original Xerxes in The Flat Response, and the fuss it was creating.

Good stuff

 

I bought one of the very first Xerxes (with a RB300) just after it was released, this would be about 1986 IIRC. This was back at the time when you could have them in any colour as long as it was black with an opaque black lid. It was a superb sounding deck IMHO, but within a year of purchase the top plate had sagged about 1.5mm and as you indicate above Roksan denied there was a problem and refused to replace mine under guarantee – to say this pissed me off was a pretty dramatic understatement. The fact that people associate the Xerxes with plinth sag has much to do with Roksan's attitude to their customers at the time, had they addressed the problem to their customers satisfaction I'm sure they would have a better reputation.

The plinth sag on mine seemed to stop getting worse at 1.5mm. It was still a struggle to set it up, but was still possible. I have to admit that this experience (i.e. the company refusing to accept responsibility and sort things out) ruled Roksan out completely whenever I have shopped for a turntable since. I have owned several LP12s, a P9 and currently a Spacedeck - Linn, Rega and Nottingham Analogue are all companies who offer superb customer support.

Tony.

 

Tony - how do you find the Spacedeck, having gone along your LP12/P9 journey?? I'd be really interested to know, thanks.

Richard (trying to keep every option open!)

 

I love it and suspect it will stay for the duration. The P9 is superb – it's timing is amazing, really fast and tight with amazing bass control, but I always found a sense of leanness and a lack of scale compared to a really good LP12. My P9 was the original model, I haven't had one of the current ones at home so can't comment on it.

The LP12 is superb but very variable from a second hand perspective – I've had good ones and bad ones. It has also changed quite a lot in character over the years as Linn developed it, different people will prefer different specs. My last one was a very, very good one and the result of quite a few years building. It was Cirkus'd and totally current spec apart from the top plate 'bolt mod', I used it with a Zeta and DIY Armageddon clone PSU. This was a big, dynamic powerful sounding deck with superb PRaT etc, I really liked it, but became frustrated that it wouldn't play 45s and also needed fairly regular tweaking as the Zeta is at the very top end of arms weight wise that the LP12 will take and puts a lot of stress on the back spring.

It is hard to do meaningful comparisons between the LP12 and Spacedeck as the arms involved are chalk and cheese, the Zeta is a incredibly dynamic high mass conventional arm, the Spacearm is a fairly low mass unipivot. My Spacedeck / Spacearm sounds wonderfully natural and amazingly quiet with excellent pitch and PRaT, though not quite as groovy as the Linn, nor is it quite as dynamic. It does however have an amazing 'rightness' to it – I have never heard any deck get piano as rock solid and believable. The Spacedeck has an even better sense of scale than the Linn and is definitely more even handed.

These three decks have different characters and will appeal to different people and fit into different systems. For me the Spacedeck is the winner; I love the neutrality of the thing as I have very wide musical taste, but I could easily understand someone preferring either of the others.

Tony.

 

My first TT was, believe it or not, a Roksan Xerxes in black ash which I bought 15 years ago when I was a student! Needless to say it took whipping over a grand in cash out of the old building society account - I was inspired by a fellow student who owned a Xerxes on his system and who was one of the first people to inspire me into the world of hi-fi in the first place. The deck had a Tabriz arm and their lowest-end MM cart, though I forget the name.

So it was the original design-Xerxes and very impressive it looked too. It sounded pretty impressive too, even through my umbalanced and less-than-revealing (budget) system - a Musical Fidelity B1 integrated amp and Heybrook Point Five speakers. However, something did start to bother me - not only the sagging plinth but the fact that the plinth and the arm used to vibrate, even when the platter was just spinning and no music was being played. This bugged me because an expensive deck like this shouldn't behave like that - should it?? I used to pack it up and take it back to the dealer to be examined and did this two or three times, but each time I set it back up again the problem would recur.

I lived with it for a few more years, during which time the deck didn't see much use, that I can recall. I eventually took it for a service and a zi arm upgrade but the cost was twice what I expected and that ultimately led me to decide to get rid of it once and for all.

So my humble Rega Planar 3 is the result of trading down (!!) to something which clearly was much simpler and less fuss to set up, but which still enjoyed an excellent reputation as a budget deck. I've had the Rega for 10 years now and since then it's had a P3 motor upgrade and a cart upgrade to the Super Elys. It's sounding pretty good through my recently upgraded Naim system so were I to consider a TT upgrade I'd have to look seriously at Xerxes-level decks.

The problem is that my previous expreiences with Roksan gear always makes me think twice.

Regards,

JonR

 

Sounds like a noisy motor in conjunction with a incorrectly set top plinth, either that or it had been allowed to run dry and the main bearing had started to drill down (a surprisingly common problem with the Xerxes as the main bearing is very thin and doesn't hold much oil).

The Xerxes takes way more careful setting up than many people (including some dealers) think – the top plinth can easily be knocked so it isn't sitting perfectly on the three rubber blobs and contacts either the side or top lip of the outer plinth. This totally screws the sound up. The arm cable dressing is problematic too – the best results are had with the three legged Roksan table and the arm lead just allowed to dangle straight down (i.e. not exiting via the slot in the back of the outer plinth).

Tony.

 

Mine is a not-quite humble Interspace, but what you say about piano is spot on IMO. This came as a tremendous shock after the P25 - which I could *never* get to do piano adequately. The Notts also kicks Rega comprehensively into touch in the area of tonality. There is a certain greyness with the Rega, whereas NAS is 70mm technicolor (but not coloured). Violins are juicy, scratchy violins (especially through the Harbs).
All that said, a Rega properly set up on wall shelf would be a much more formidable prospect I think.

 

Just popped into town to have a chat with the guys at Walrus.

Had a most illuminating, and refreshingly non-opinionated conversation about what I should be doing re changing turntables. Rather than say 'yeah...let's sell you a 1400 quid TT and be done with it' I was given many more options, most likely of which will be converting my Gyro to SE-spec. Trouble is (or not as the case may be) I really like my Michell and am extremely loath to give it up - in its current state, having done many of the available upgrades, it sounds just the ticket to my ears.

There is of course the fear of getting a new TT home and not finding its sound an improvement (at best) on what I've got. Unfortunately I'm not in the position to spend 2k+ for a significant upgrade.

The dealer (who'll be nameless but isn't the afore-mentioned) who I've booked my P5/P7 demo with for friday was extremely dismissive of what I wanted to do - rather than say 'are you quite sure you want to do this?' it was a case of 'Yeah...the P5'll be easily as good as a Gyro and the P7'll be significantly better'. I'm rather inclined to bin friday's demo as I'd possibly be wasting their time - Pete's quite happy to dem me a P7 against a Gyro anyway, should I be unsure. The other place don't do Michell...but you guessed that I'm sure

The SE Gyro is a fair bit lighter than a standard - that acrylic weighs a fair chunk - and should hopefully sound a little bit better aswell as being a lot more wallshelf-friendly.

Anyway...sorry for rambling. Thinking out loud again

Edit> Oh....had a good look at a Spacedeck - bit gorgeous innit!!

 

Smart move. My Gyro is an SE, with Orbe platter and VC PSU. It's not going anywhere in a hurry. ;-)

As well as SE-ing it, try the platter and PSU upgrades if you haven't already.

-- Ian

 

Ian - it's running a DC motor with HR psu at the moment. Made a staggering difference over the old AC engine - even the DC motor its own simple wall-wart plug sounded better than a QC-supplied AC Gyro.

Seems like we've come to a happy compromise (and a damn sight cheaper one to boot).

Tell me more about the Orbe platter - is it really worth losing those funky brass weights???

 

I bought my Gyro secondhand and it already had the Orbe platter upgrade, so I honestly couldn't tell you how much difference it makes. General opinion from those who have experienced both is that the Orbe platter is A Good Thing. Worth trying certainly, I bet Les could dig one out to lend you. Older Gyros might need a new spindle to take it IIRC.

I never liked the Gyro brass weights meself anyway...

-- Ian

 

Well, it's a shame we won't now get to read about your experiences with the P5 and P7 but good for you in any case that you've arrived at a solution you are happy with!

Regards,

JonR

 

Jon - I've not completely written friday off yet, and will more likely than not go along and have a listen to the two Regas. If nothing else it'll be a handy point of reference for the future - I do like the Rega 'sound' so I'm reasonably confident I'll enjoy what I hear, it's just how much.

It may transpire that I'll be bowled over by the 7 in which case a serious re-appraisal will be needed - it's just that SE-ing my Gyro is the most cost-effective and sensible journey to take, bearing in mind I really like the thing anyway.

I'll keep you posted

 

Gromit, my piece of advice is this - call the Michell factory, and ask to speak to one of the technicians.

I visited the factory directly (very important) and got a ''second'' Orbe platter for less than a hundred quid. I personally believe it was a brand new platter, it looked perfect.

You wont get that kind of deal through a dealer channel, obviously.

Not only did it sound better, but when I sold the deck, I was able to label it ''Orbe'' - and in the description put - Gyrodec upgraded to near Orbe level. That little change added around 200 pounds to the price I got on e-bay.

The guy I saw offered me other discounted parts too.

Its only in Borehamwood, so it could be the best value trip you've made!

I wont tell you what I bought in its place, because you will think there is a conspiracy theory!

 

Thanks BN - I've rung the factory on a few occasions and they've never been anything less than wonderfully helpful, so may well do just that with re to the Orbe bits

So g'wan then...what you spinning your vinyl on now...???

VPI???
Rega???

Or something far less contentious????

Edit> Aha...think I've sussed it.

 

Local P9 Alert For Michael

If you're still with us, Michael, here's a Rega P9, currently residing in Lisbon, just listed on eBay Germany.

Rega P9

Might be worth contacting the guy for a demo, perhaps he would pull the listing for an interested local.

Cheers, Dex

 

Interestingly enough (for me anyway), I live just two miles from the factory, just further up and off the main road (going towards Radlett) though it must be in a building off-road or something because for some reason I can't seem to locate them!

Can you give us any clues, bottleneck...??

Cheers,

JonR

 

Dex - thanks for the heads up on the P9. I'm not back in Lisbon until the 14th but I might contact him to see if he'd do a deal outside of eBay. His starting price of 1600 Euros is good but he's probably looking for more. Given that I've got to get a cart and phono stage aswell it's starting to get expensive....allthough it's tempting :tempted:

Michael.