New Power Cable test proposal

Hi,

penance said:
Most mains rated cables have 1000v insulation, but that is different to insulation resistance.
Click to expand...

Yes, however insulation becomes actually meaningless in the design context.

penance said:
Isolation withstanding capacity, WTF is that???
penance said:
No idea, meant to write the sentence differently first, forgot to kill some words.

penance said:
Electrical safety is not inherent to the design, that also depends on fuse used and competance of the person who made it.
Click to expand...

Fused up to 13A is fine, competent assembly is given. The UK Mains Plug attached to a piece of wire is safe only under the same caveats.

Ciao T
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
13amp is not fine unless you know the current carrying capacity of the cable.

The insulation is not meaningless, that is a very daft thing to say. If it was meaningless you could remove it, but then your cable would go bang as soon as you plugged it in. The outer insulation must pass the relevant safety measures, as this is to protect the user in the event of an earth failure.

You still havent approached insulation resistance.

I'm not trying to pick holes, but i have seen the result of bad/incorrectly installed electrical systems, it can cause loss of property or worse.
 
Hi,

Right, I think I had enough of this blatant and plainly obvious attempt by several posters to blackball the integrity and technical competence of someone who holds opposing views.

You can consider this as a basic statement on the matter, I'll leave it at that.

First, strictly speaking anything to do with mains electricity is potentially dangerous. And strictly speaking fitting yourself a plug (purchased at B&Q over the counter with no qualifications demanded) to a cable (purchased over the same counter as the plug at the same time) and then not having your work certified by a quaified electrician who will likely charge £ 35+ per hour and will only charge you the first hour to do the test is unsafe.

Second, the article in which I recommend a certain approach to making "audio grade" mains cables clearly states the risks and suggests what needs to be done as follows (I wrote that bit as well):

"Safety Note on Mains-cables and other mains connected Tweaks:

If you are not comfortable working with Mains-Voltages - LEAVE IT ALONE!!!

Remember to have the Cables and Units TESTED BY A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN for electrical Safety.

Make double and triple sure that there are no Damages to the Insulation or anything of that type. Observe the Safety-Regulations and Grounding as applicable IN YOUR COUNTRY.

If you make and use such a mains-cables or Filters it entirely YOUR responsibility to ensure the Electrical and Fire Safety."

It also contains the usual legal disclaimers, but only AFTER the above notes. These notes are much more comprehensive than what you get at B&Q when buying your plug & cable.

Third, the cable design(s) I published are based on cable with a generic specifications that are not officially rated for mains service, that is also clearly stated.

HOWEVER, outside formal approval for mains service, in terms of rated voltage for the various insulations, conductor crossection etc. the cables are able to meet and in many areas exceed to a considerable degree the basic minimum requirements for mains service.

I happen to know that for a certainty, because I selected the cables recommended (CT-125 and RG213 and RG214) explicitly because of their ability to meet or exceed these specifications at the time of writing (actually originally 96 on RAHE).

Fourth, all the Cables I make for my own use are tested using a "PAT" tester that includes insulation resistance and earth loop resistance (the same I suggest as mandatory in the safety notes) and happen to pass this test, which again aims to establish that the tested cable meets the minimum specifications to be safe.

Note that passing this test per se in not a legal approval or anything of the like, it merely confirms that the cable conforms to certain minimum specifications in the most critical areas for safety. In order to be considered legally safe it not only has to pass the apropriate test (PAT in the UK), but it requires the additional formal type approval by the various relevant bodies (in the UK the approval is under British Standard).

So, I'll repeat that despite missing any formal approval for mains service under british standard there is no specific area in which the cables are technically incapable of meeting the standard, they merely have never been formally certified to do so.

Considering the above I take exception to being accused of acting irresponsible or of endagering the lifes of others.

And I equally take reasonable exceptions to claims that the UBYTE-M cable is actually in technical terms unsafe (technical meaning the ability to handle the voltages involved, providing sufficient insulation and providing sufficient conductor thickness to allow the current flowing to be handeled as well to include stranded conductors for the Earth/PEN connection) to any material degree, as opposed to LEGAL requirements to proof of electrical safety for the sale of articles under the various directives and standards.

Fifth, disregardless of any such notes each individual cable should (just like all other mains powered portable appliances and mains cables in your home) be tested regulary for a pass under the PAT test and the use remains at the users discretion and risk, just as the option to regulary test your appliances or not (or installation of smoke alarms or not and many other issues, such as the discretion to cross a road despite a red traffic light).

So, keep banging on all you like, but make sure you have your facts right.

Majorly peeved off, l8er T
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hi,

wolfgang said:
May I ask who are these?
Click to expand...

You may ask.

The exact number of the people who have all the information is equal to the number of stakeholders in 3DSonics. The test was explicitly designed to allow these stakeholders (including myself) to make an informed choice as to which of a number of possible interconnect cable designs to formally place in production.

In order to do so without being influenced by knowing what was in the cables and how much it would cost to make (there is a tendency to assume "more expensive is better", in this particular case this actually prooved to be the case, much to my chargin) we choose to listen "blind" for ourselfs and also to send the various test cables to a number of customers. This test is still blind, but it should be noted the test qualifies strictly speaking as single blind only. We collated the results afterwards and made our choice, based on these results.

That is all I have to say about that.

Ciao T
 
3DSonics said:
Hi,



You may ask.

The exact number of the people who have all the information is equal to the number of stakeholders in 3DSonics. The test was explicitly designed to allow these stakeholders (including myself) to make an informed choice as to which of a number of possible interconnect cable designs to formally place in production.

In order to do so without being influenced by knowing what was in the cables and how much it would cost to make (there is a tendency to assume "more expensive is better", in this particular case this actually prooved to be the case, much to my chargin) we choose to listen "blind" for ourselfs and also to send the various test cables to a number of customers. This test is still blind, but it should be noted the test qualifies strictly speaking as single blind only. We collated the results afterwards and made our choice, based on these results.

That is all I have to say about that.

Ciao T
Click to expand...



Mr 3dsonics take part in our test then .That is all I have to say about the above statement.
Lee
 
Hi,

purplepleaser said:
Mr 3dsonics take part in our test then .That is all I have to say about the above statement.
Lee
Click to expand...

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, written articles about it and I get slagged of by the naysayers over electrical safety (as seem to be unable to make headway on any topical issues).

Thanks but no thanks, I have little enough time for stuff I actually really want to do and to do a repeat of tests I did 9 Years ago and got savaged over on the usenet.

Can you you spell BORING?

Besides I still have to seriously evaluate a new passive transformer preamp, design a phonostage and (SE) amp, build up a dac kit, consult on another CD player & Amp project that takes much more time than I wanted to invest and I have still 3 pairs of shanling monoblocks to modify asap.

All that on top of holding down a dayjob and keeping my wife happy.

So have fun and all that, thanks for the invite, but no thanks.

Ciao T
 
HI 3Dsonics, You could have saved your very valuable time and said no in the first place instead of typing what you have. BORING is what some of your over complicated post have been,which I have already told you.I am not clever enough to talk about electrical safety.I have never tested any new equipment since buy my system two years ago.The test of the power cables is of interest to me and a few others to and has been to yourself in the past.I will admit that some of your comments are correct but not practical to the test that we are trying to do.Maybe if we all got together a Hifi magazine and cable companies would put there money where their mouths are.

I hope that your testing goes well. hope that we can talk on a less touchy subject in the future. Please take the comments i have made as tongue in cheek as I have done with yours.
Lee :)
 
3DSonics wrote:
Note, the SPECIFIC cable described in TNT Audio, WHEN CONSTRUCTED COMPETENTLY AS DETAILED are electrically safe
Click to expand...
make sure you have your facts right.
Click to expand...

Fact: You are not an accredited approval body and thus in no position to state as fact something when constructed is safe and fit for intended purpose by the general public.

Fact: To do so is irresponsible on your part especially under an article aimed at ââ'¬Å"beginnersââ'¬Â.

Fact: The Health & Safety Executive has described your article as ââ'¬Å"unsafe practiceââ'¬Â.

Fact: Disclaimers written in red do not absolve you of legal culpability.

Fact: This has nothing to do with opposing views.


The responsible course of action is to either (a) remove the article or (b) manufacture the design yourself with appropriate safety approvals by the British Standards Institute.

And yes I make the same criticisms of all DIY mains cable designs published on the inter-web. This is nothing personal Thorsten just that these criticisms can be communicated.

Less so manufactured mains cable designs that similarly have no safety approvals because at least the end-user is assured, to some degree, of a competently constructed and tested product.

What you fail to understand Thorsten is that because a component - in this case an electrical cable - is approved to a certain specification (the approval you refer to is voltage) does not mean it is automatically approved as fit for an intended purpose where that specification is applicable. Neither are you in a position to give such approval.

It is for this precise reason that distinction is made between approvals that relate to specification and approvals that relate to intended purpose. Hence BS6500:2000 is described as ââ'¬Å"Electric cables. Flexible cords rated up to 300/500 V, for use with appliances and equipment intended for domestic, office and similar environmentsââ'¬Â.

To make speculative assumption (for that is exactly what it is) and then to promote this to those who may be inclined to believe it has authority is, without doubt, irresponsible.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Just to add my tuppence worth, I have to say the last test was totally pointless and this one looks like being of a similar standard.

If you want to make any meaningful conclusions, firstly look for the conditions under which your findings will stand up to scrutiny, then go about arranging for that test.

I fail to see why so many people of at the ART forum are getting so excited to be honest.
 
Far from it Mosfet. Simply an assumption on your part. Objectively speaking, both tests were/will be fatally flawed and therefore pointless.
 
Kiang said:
so , 3d sonics is not volunteering

anyone else?
Click to expand...


haha!

3D makes some valid suggestions. I think the idea of this test has been lost somewhat.

Purple pleaser seems to have the gisat of it, in as much as he accepts that the results are only going to be as good as the honesty of the testers. To rule out the odd fabrication here or there we need a large test group. The cables will be disguised sufficiently well enough that the tester should not be able to guess the price etc of each cable.

If some one recognises a cable from it's plug or similar, then perhaps they should enlist some help to perform a simpe blind test.

You can go round and round in circles debating the validity of the test, but with a large test group made up of intelligent adults we should be able to form a result worth reading.

Scientific? Maybe not!
Fun and interesting? YES!.

It is a shame that more people don't share our faith in fellow forum members ability to be objective on this subject. As certain amount of trust is required here.

Oh and the test CD is a great idea.
 
Yes James
Funny how people post on these forums seeking advice on which cable or other kit to buy and yet when someone says the same and in a collective fashion they give it little credibility
 
we have 19 volunteers so far
I am still waiting for someone to donate an aftermarket lead for the trial so continue volunteering if interested.
If anyone wants to donate a lead please PM me and please do not name the lead here on the forum (we do not want the volunteers to know the identity of the lead)

Thanks
 
Indeed Kiang.

We should point out that we didn't come here looking to cause a major row and I hope in dabating this people haven't fallen out with each other. It's just that this is probably the biggest UK forum and we know a lot of you so thought you light like to help out, get involved, whatever.

19 isn't a bad number, but a few more would be good

Chill, :MILD: :MILD:
James.
 
I have a spare 2mtr Titan from Krystal cables you can knock about with,but i want it back
 
If anyone wants to donate a lead please PM me and please do not name the lead here on the forum (we do not want the volunteers to know the identity of the lead)

I have a spare 2mtr Titan from Krystal cables you can knock about with,but i want it back

:)
 

Latest posts

Back
Top