new scientist
- Thread starter owl37400
- Start date
Paul Ashworth
SP10 Aficionado
Yeah - good idea. Who's going to pick out the hairs and other 'bits' prior to packaging?
-------------------------------------
Paul
Paul Ashworth
SP10 Aficionado
Yes, and that can vary depending on the level of accumulated intestinal gas and the size of bottom involved.
-------------------------------------
Paul
Hello have recieved a reply from Russ Andrews.
Hi Ben - Russ's reply is below
Gary
Hi Ben,
All I can say is that cable directionality is audible enough for anyone to hear, but I have no explanation for the phenomenon. I do know that there are many steps in the cable making process that either change or set the direction. I suspect that Heaviside was right when he proposed that the signal travelled in the field surrounding a conductor ( at least that's what I think he said!) please correct me if I'm wrong.
Russ.
Russ Andrews,
Managing Director
If someone could look up this reference would be helpfull. Cheers Ben, will continue the research!
Hi Ben - Russ's reply is below
Gary
Hi Ben,
All I can say is that cable directionality is audible enough for anyone to hear, but I have no explanation for the phenomenon. I do know that there are many steps in the cable making process that either change or set the direction. I suspect that Heaviside was right when he proposed that the signal travelled in the field surrounding a conductor ( at least that's what I think he said!) please correct me if I'm wrong.
Russ.
Russ Andrews,
Managing Director
If someone could look up this reference would be helpfull. Cheers Ben, will continue the research!
Maybe it is about time I posted something Mr. A. Nonymouse commented -
Due to the crystalline structure created during drawing and the fact that signals travel not through wire (electrons are way too slow moving) but as a EM wave around the wire, it may potentially be "directional", in other words, it may effect the EM wave differently depending on the direction of the crystal boundaries and the direction the wave travels.
As a result, of course, ALL DRAWN WIRE would be "directional".
It may or may not be a real, audible effect or non, that is a separate issue.
------
Given what Tones said about the way copper forms I am not sure what to think. I would probably trust Tones as he works in the field.
Due to the crystalline structure created during drawing and the fact that signals travel not through wire (electrons are way too slow moving) but as a EM wave around the wire, it may potentially be "directional", in other words, it may effect the EM wave differently depending on the direction of the crystal boundaries and the direction the wave travels.
As a result, of course, ALL DRAWN WIRE would be "directional".
It may or may not be a real, audible effect or non, that is a separate issue.
------
Given what Tones said about the way copper forms I am not sure what to think. I would probably trust Tones as he works in the field.
I have found something on the net, a guy that says its to do with mechanical effects on crystaline structure changing during the wire being pulled through the die:
Mike VansEvers: Wire has a direction because wire is created mechanically. The internal structure of a copper crystal (face centered cubic, FCC) is reoriented by the physical forces imposed upon the copper by the "die" that the copper is drawn through during the process that turns a 1/4" rod of copper into the wire we use in our audio systems. This is not a one-step process. The copper rod has to be redrawn many times to get it down to the size used in audio cables. During this process something happens which causes wire to have an audible direction. I used to think that wire direction was the funniest thing (stupid funny) I ever heard audiophiles talk about, .until I started making speaker cables. That was a most unpleasant awakening! When I discovered that wire had an audible direction, it meant that I then had to listen to and mark every piece of wire used in my products! Every one of my products has a construction notebook which lists wire: direction, length, and color. (Yeah, color too. Another damn eye-opener that had been impossible to conceive of!)
only more info but at least there is some direction to the discussion now! If you fancy it you can read more at http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb011999.htm cheers, Ben.
Mike VansEvers: Wire has a direction because wire is created mechanically. The internal structure of a copper crystal (face centered cubic, FCC) is reoriented by the physical forces imposed upon the copper by the "die" that the copper is drawn through during the process that turns a 1/4" rod of copper into the wire we use in our audio systems. This is not a one-step process. The copper rod has to be redrawn many times to get it down to the size used in audio cables. During this process something happens which causes wire to have an audible direction. I used to think that wire direction was the funniest thing (stupid funny) I ever heard audiophiles talk about, .until I started making speaker cables. That was a most unpleasant awakening! When I discovered that wire had an audible direction, it meant that I then had to listen to and mark every piece of wire used in my products! Every one of my products has a construction notebook which lists wire: direction, length, and color. (Yeah, color too. Another damn eye-opener that had been impossible to conceive of!)
only more info but at least there is some direction to the discussion now! If you fancy it you can read more at http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb011999.htm cheers, Ben.
When all else fails, say it's a phenomenon without explanation. Better still call it an anomaly. Refer to some seriously hairy equations to add credibility (it's not necessary to actually understand the equations of course but neither will anyone else). Standard practice for the snake oiler.
Ben, with respect because I appreciate what you are trying to do, this has marketing BS writ large in big flashing neon letters. RA has gone from cable directionality as being a ââ'¬Å"statement of factââ'¬Â to unexplained phenomena in the space of a few weeks. That is the only thing that's remarkable here.
It's quite simple. If a wire passing an AC signal showed any sort of significant measurable directional difference (in distortion for instance as claimed) this would have been noted a long time ago. You'd easily find reference to this elsewhere outside of hi-fi. Contrary to popular beliefs hi-fi does not exist in some magic bubble where seemingly there is rather a lot of phenomena going on.
Ben, with respect because I appreciate what you are trying to do, this has marketing BS writ large in big flashing neon letters. RA has gone from cable directionality as being a ââ'¬Å"statement of factââ'¬Â to unexplained phenomena in the space of a few weeks. That is the only thing that's remarkable here.
It's quite simple. If a wire passing an AC signal showed any sort of significant measurable directional difference (in distortion for instance as claimed) this would have been noted a long time ago. You'd easily find reference to this elsewhere outside of hi-fi. Contrary to popular beliefs hi-fi does not exist in some magic bubble where seemingly there is rather a lot of phenomena going on.
In truth, and I'm not saying that directionality does exist, it is not beneficial, for someone involved in a technical business like Hi-Fi, to make claims and then admit you don't know why or how this thing happens. In reality the guy is admitting he does not know, but that it does occur because he himself observes it. This is brave and I personally would not poo-poo him for putting his head on the block. Is it not more likely that RA will loose credibility for speaking openly of this, if he was totally business orientated I think he would have kept his mouth shut. I will continue to look into this and await the arrival of my Ben Duncan book which claims to prove cable directionality. Wish me luck.
sq225917
Exposer of Foo
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2007
- Messages
- 1,514
- Reaction score
- 0
forget the technical aspects and look at it purely from a marketing point of view.
if he states the case often enough objectors will eventually give up objecting through apathy,and hey presto at that point it becomes quasi accepted. new buyers enter the market and the quasi acceptance becomes absolute for those who know no better, and he has an instant market for his bullshit.
naming a problem and offering a solution to the perceived problem is market self generation, simple as that.
if cable directionality is audible then why do we need the cables marked, surely we can all hear it right? after all it's audible Russ says so.
Quote from that link.....
"There are some people who like to try to prove to other people just how audible the correct electrical polarity is for proper music reproduction. These people claim to be able to listen to a recording and determine within a short listen whether the polarity of the recording is "correct" or "reversed." When they hear a "reversed" recording, they will jump up, and swap the "+" and "-" speaker leads on both speakers and, voilà-- wonderful sound in proper polarity. This is complete baloney. What they are hearing is not the effect of reversing the electrical polarity of system. What they are hearing is how the system sounds with the audio signal traveling backwards though the loudspeaker which contains connecting wire, wire in the voice coils, wire in component leads, wire in the inductors in the crossover, and the capacitors themselves. They all sound different when the signal travels though them backwards."
What utter and complete bollocks, whether i use an inversion switch on my cd player or swap polarity by flipping one half of the cables it sounds the same. when i totally flip the cables, speaker to amp, it makes no difference at all, yet they are reversed.
if anyone has the last Richard Hawley album please try it for yourself, its the most phase sensitive cd i know.
if he states the case often enough objectors will eventually give up objecting through apathy,and hey presto at that point it becomes quasi accepted. new buyers enter the market and the quasi acceptance becomes absolute for those who know no better, and he has an instant market for his bullshit.
naming a problem and offering a solution to the perceived problem is market self generation, simple as that.
if cable directionality is audible then why do we need the cables marked, surely we can all hear it right? after all it's audible Russ says so.
Quote from that link.....
"There are some people who like to try to prove to other people just how audible the correct electrical polarity is for proper music reproduction. These people claim to be able to listen to a recording and determine within a short listen whether the polarity of the recording is "correct" or "reversed." When they hear a "reversed" recording, they will jump up, and swap the "+" and "-" speaker leads on both speakers and, voilà-- wonderful sound in proper polarity. This is complete baloney. What they are hearing is not the effect of reversing the electrical polarity of system. What they are hearing is how the system sounds with the audio signal traveling backwards though the loudspeaker which contains connecting wire, wire in the voice coils, wire in component leads, wire in the inductors in the crossover, and the capacitors themselves. They all sound different when the signal travels though them backwards."
What utter and complete bollocks, whether i use an inversion switch on my cd player or swap polarity by flipping one half of the cables it sounds the same. when i totally flip the cables, speaker to amp, it makes no difference at all, yet they are reversed.
if anyone has the last Richard Hawley album please try it for yourself, its the most phase sensitive cd i know.
Interesting that mr andrews is claiming "anyone" can hear the difference. Ben, is it easy to reply to him? I think he should be challenged on this, as it is quite clear that plenty here can't hear any difference. He's trying to brush off the question with breezy non-committal remarks which is rather in contrast to the statements in his sales literature.
I don't think he can be described either as "brave" or "putting his head on the block". I respect his right to express his own opinion, but he's totally avoided the whole issue of kimber's claimed "scientific testing". If he was really brave he'd admit that he hasn't got one bit of evidence that anyone (including himself) can hear a difference under blind test conditions.
I think it is a bit unfair to pick on RA so much. On the other hand I think it is bad to say the cables are directional with no evidence but... lots of others do as well.
So lets compile a list of manufactures that claim their cables to be directional, can we?
AudioQuest (AFAIK, they have arrows on the cables)
Kimber
Russ Andrews
Cord
…keep 'em coming! - they are all full of... marketing!
So lets compile a list of manufactures that claim their cables to be directional, can we?
AudioQuest (AFAIK, they have arrows on the cables)
Kimber
Russ Andrews
Cord
…keep 'em coming! - they are all full of... marketing!
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2003
- Messages
- 217
- Reaction score
- 0
even linn and naim label there cables directionality.
why not ask all these companies too.
why not ask all these companies too.
Conduction is via the electon sea in a metal. They can be no such things as directionality and anyway its AC!! RA has no evidence. Just spouting some pseudo science to rationalise it and name dropping a famous physicist. RA claimed it was all scientifically determined...
I can rememebr a heaviside eqn for electrons or something but not much more.
I can rememebr a heaviside eqn for electrons or something but not much more.
