If cables can make us question the very nature of the difference between the real and the imaginary (rather than, say, discussing loudspeaker port chuffing), then I shall change my mind! Cables are good, can make a difference and I condone the purchase of expensive cables (albeit with a minor disclaimer about improvements heard being down to what we may currently view as 'fancy'). Think of cable swapping as aural therapy sessions for the serious/nervous audiophile.
Problems with tests
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If cables can make us question the very nature of the difference between the real and the imaginary (rather than, say, discussing loudspeaker port chuffing), then I shall change my mind! Cables are good, can make a difference and I condone the purchase of expensive cables (albeit with a minor disclaimer about improvements heard being down to what we may currently view as 'fancy'). Think of cable swapping as aural therapy sessions for the serious/nervous audiophile.
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
The above exchange just shows your pitbull like beliefs, that as I can't hear a difference, and you can't prove diddly squat 
it's all bollox, Sorry but this is not the case.
It's also taken up far to much posting space, with obsessive distain.
1.Everyone who buys a cable more than £50 is a twat (in your eyes it seems), and is totaly kidding themselves, because YOU have never heard a difference, so in a world with so many fools, does anyone have any common sence at all?, are every single one of these hifi buffs audiofools?, stop dreaming please.
2.Because you have never heard a difference, doesn't mean others don't, and they can't all be dreaming can they ?, mass hypnosis anyone
3. How about you guys bring dowm your cables you use in your systems, and you can plug them in mine, and see if you can hear a difference, bring your camera as well (record the event), you may yet have a preform a maggie thacther. Wm
it's all bollox, Sorry but this is not the case.It's also taken up far to much posting space, with obsessive distain.
1.Everyone who buys a cable more than £50 is a twat (in your eyes it seems), and is totaly kidding themselves, because YOU have never heard a difference, so in a world with so many fools, does anyone have any common sence at all?, are every single one of these hifi buffs audiofools?, stop dreaming please.
2.Because you have never heard a difference, doesn't mean others don't, and they can't all be dreaming can they ?, mass hypnosis anyone
3. How about you guys bring dowm your cables you use in your systems, and you can plug them in mine, and see if you can hear a difference, bring your camera as well (record the event), you may yet have a preform a maggie thacther. Wm
What form of blind testing would this involve Tony?
Maybe the easiest would be the HUYA test, as this seems to be one familiar to many. Sadly I have heard that using this technique alledgedly impairs the testers' hearing somewhat, rather negating the purpose.
Maybe the easiest would be the HUYA test, as this seems to be one familiar to many. Sadly I have heard that using this technique alledgedly impairs the testers' hearing somewhat, rather negating the purpose.
joel
Shaman of Signals
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But this is simply taking your argument (I can hear a difference ergo there is a difference) and inverting it.Originally posted by wadia-miester
The above exchange just shows your pitbull like beliefs, that as I can't hear a difference, and you can't prove diddly squat
If the argument you say is bollox really is, then so is yours
Originally posted by wadia-miester
The above exchange just shows your pitbull like beliefs, that as I can't hear a difference, and you can't prove diddly squat
It's also taken up far to much posting space, with obsessive distain.
1.Everyone who buys a cable more than £50 is a twat (in your eyes it seems), and is totaly kidding themselves, because YOU have never heard a difference, so in a world with so many fools, does anyone have any common sence at all?, are every single one of these hifi buffs audiofools?, stop dreaming please.
2.Because you have never heard a difference, doesn't mean others don't, and they can't all be dreaming can they ?, mass hypnosis anyone
3. How about you guys bring dowm your cables you use in your systems, and you can plug them in mine, and see if you can hear a difference, bring your camera as well (record the event), you may yet have a preform a maggie thacther. Wm
But the thing is, wadia-meister, I have heard differences between cables and I did believe that Van den Hul D102 was better than other, cheaper cables I had when I bought it (Ixos 104, QED Qunenx 2 - probably spelt wrong - and DNM Reson). Now I really can't hear a difference between the cables I kept, the Ixos and Van den Hul.
Certainly I admit I don't have massive experience of cables so am relying on what I read elsewhere but unfortunately the debate is along the lines of some people with plenty of experience claiming there are audible differences and some people with equal experience claiming there are not. Thankfully, though, the debate on this forum is much friendlier than on, say, the Google newsgroups. And I can only remember a couple of threads about this on Zerogain (but I may have missed earlier ones).
So I think the issue is not that simple. Cookiemonster's point was very valid and I think he made it very well. If we do hear differences then as long as that fact alone is good enough for someone then I do think that is absolutely fine. Whether these differences exist or can be proved in any 'objective' sphere is a point of interest but, at the end of the day, it is up to the listener to decide if that is of any relevance to them.
I can understand people getting fed up with it all and I would like to be 'neutral' but I'm afraid I personally have been convinced that the issue of what people report they hear in blind v. sighted tests is relevant. And this would also apply to CD players and amplifiers.
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Priceless........ :ffrc:
Tony,
Thank you for the reply, and apologies for not posting sooner, i've been having some issues with my net connection (bet it's the damn wires ).
Notwithstanding string theory as the potential source of a cable's sonic signature, you mentioned the more usual components that may be more readily examined. Examined and, with due relevancy, used as a basis for potential sources of change with reference to sonic signature. These are just basic physical observations, they aren't mine. I'm just trying to understand how a cable may provide the differences so often stated - prior to listening, prior to any form of blind testing. Imagine if we did indeed have a formula for such prediction - we do with most other hifi components - we could indeed design function specific cables. Thus, it isn't my opinion that no such formula could exist, it is the opinion of basic physics.
You mentioned a piece of copper versus a piece of silver, both having 99.99% purity. Firstly, i'm suprised you chose 4N purity, especially for copper, that's only 1 step above ETP, and we know how much bearing nines have - all those diode junctions (still will not show on a distortion analyzer). Silver, fair enough, 4N is considered pure for drawing into wire, before excessive malleability (and cost) take their toll. Everything else being equal (and i'm assuming that the 1m was a typo for 1mm, with regard to the copper or gold?), then, resistance would be the only determining factor for these otherwise similar wires to function (sonically speaking) differently?.
Without unnecessary recourse to specific resistivity, etc, etc, it can be given that the silver wire would present a lower resistance (relative to the fact that the measurement for both is very low already). For the given 1mm samples, about 5% difference. If audio distortion analysis has never (it hasn't) shown repeatable (or indeed any) difference between disimilar metals (and alloys thereof), this leaves the supposition that 5% less resistance is responsible for a change in sonic characteristic, how?. Are we not back to where we started?. That any difference is a consequence of something as yet measurable (which really isn't credible), or that no difference exists?.
I remember being told by a cable retailer that his main supplier was working with Hewlett Packard on a machine that 'proved' the presence of cable directionality. Like credible proof of cable directionality, the machine remains a pipe dream. A machine to contradict pretty elementary physics, and they can't even do that...what chance more viable distortion mechanisms?.
Thank you for the reply, and apologies for not posting sooner, i've been having some issues with my net connection (bet it's the damn wires
).Notwithstanding string theory as the potential source of a cable's sonic signature, you mentioned the more usual components that may be more readily examined. Examined and, with due relevancy, used as a basis for potential sources of change with reference to sonic signature. These are just basic physical observations, they aren't mine. I'm just trying to understand how a cable may provide the differences so often stated - prior to listening, prior to any form of blind testing. Imagine if we did indeed have a formula for such prediction - we do with most other hifi components - we could indeed design function specific cables. Thus, it isn't my opinion that no such formula could exist, it is the opinion of basic physics.
You mentioned a piece of copper versus a piece of silver, both having 99.99% purity. Firstly, i'm suprised you chose 4N purity, especially for copper, that's only 1 step above ETP, and we know how much bearing nines have - all those diode junctions (still will not show on a distortion analyzer). Silver, fair enough, 4N is considered pure for drawing into wire, before excessive malleability (and cost) take their toll. Everything else being equal (and i'm assuming that the 1m was a typo for 1mm, with regard to the copper or gold?), then, resistance would be the only determining factor for these otherwise similar wires to function (sonically speaking) differently?.
Without unnecessary recourse to specific resistivity, etc, etc, it can be given that the silver wire would present a lower resistance (relative to the fact that the measurement for both is very low already). For the given 1mm samples, about 5% difference. If audio distortion analysis has never (it hasn't) shown repeatable (or indeed any) difference between disimilar metals (and alloys thereof), this leaves the supposition that 5% less resistance is responsible for a change in sonic characteristic, how?. Are we not back to where we started?. That any difference is a consequence of something as yet measurable (which really isn't credible), or that no difference exists?.
I remember being told by a cable retailer that his main supplier was working with Hewlett Packard on a machine that 'proved' the presence of cable directionality. Like credible proof of cable directionality, the machine remains a pipe dream. A machine to contradict pretty elementary physics, and they can't even do that...what chance more viable distortion mechanisms?.
When you listen to a CD do you tune in using 'audio distortion analysis' brain impregnated software? Whether there exists some proof in cloud cuckoo land as to whether or not 15 more electrons move West in cable A than cable B, and a computer prefers the bass hump of the later cable, i fail to see how any of it is relevent. Whether there exists here, on Mars, or in Gods pantry, a difference or not between two bits of wire, its wholly irrelevent when you come to sit down and listen to the music through your human ear surely? And even if you satisfy yourself with proof that all cables are identical, they are still all going to sound different, unless you eat pie and chips 365 days a year and are constructed far differently than i am.
What purpose does all of this serve? Of course, if playing with x's and y's is just a turn on, then that's a different matter. You have to pass the time doing something. But just content yourself with the fact that you are a 'human' as you choose to call yourself, and that you haven't got a ****ing clue.
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Adam,
If we take the *rules* as per standard methods and theoristic practices that many run to, then by this our 'Least sonicaly challenged ' signal transference device, should be way down low on the cap/con/res scale as in good as gets , if the revelent theories are appliable, I will say these are not the lowest, or indeed the *best* as in *on paper* specs, but does this make them the worst ?, 
In our opinion no, and in the case of other cables too (other makers cables), the answer is no as well.
The use also of no usual suspect materials also, throws into the mix, other variables, which you can take in account as pure math therum, without question, but can it predict the exact 'sonic charactoristic' change, and or frequency hike/dive etc?.
I also am in the opinion, of a lot of the differenices are very small for sure, and that larger Jaw dropping cliams Very rarely happen, hype is a problem, and that I feel gets every ones goat up.
Now, back to cables, I wish to ask you a question first Adam, what is your stance here, all wire sounds the same (given the same insulation & and jacketing/shielding etc), they can only be very miniscule differenices, or I just don't hear a difference regauardless (and some people don't, I do believe that also)
Because, the long and short of it for me is this, It is music/sounds you are listening too, not worrying if No. 2 fuel injector, solenoid is going to jam on engine number 3 @ 40,000 Ft.
The main tests are done by 2 of us, listening, and deciding how/what/why we feel the tested cable preforms in relation to a known reference point, we indendify the strenghts and weekinesses, and make (or try to) *adjustments* to give the desired results, sometimes it doesn't happen, others it does.
In essence Adam we use a mixture of Basic scientific principles, quality materials, our own experiance in relation to cables sounds, and various treatment methods and unique wire blends, oh and that most important ingredient our ears. I can't be anymore open than that. Could if be we've found a brand new type of super conductor answers on a post card 
Wm
If we take the *rules* as per standard methods and theoristic practices that many run to, then by this our 'Least sonicaly challenged
' signal transference device, should be way down low on the cap/con/res scale as in good as gets , if the revelent theories are appliable, I will say these are not the lowest, or indeed the *best* as in *on paper* specs, but does this make them the worst ?, In our opinion no, and in the case of other cables too (other makers cables), the answer is no as well.The use also of no usual suspect materials also, throws into the mix, other variables, which you can take in account as pure math therum, without question, but can it predict the exact 'sonic charactoristic' change, and or frequency hike/dive etc?.
I also am in the opinion, of a lot of the differenices are very small for sure, and that larger Jaw dropping cliams Very rarely happen, hype is a problem, and that I feel gets every ones goat up.
Now, back to cables, I wish to ask you a question first Adam, what is your stance here, all wire sounds the same (given the same insulation & and jacketing/shielding etc), they can only be very miniscule differenices, or I just don't hear a difference regauardless (and some people don't, I do believe that also)
Because, the long and short of it for me is this, It is music/sounds you are listening too, not worrying if No. 2 fuel injector, solenoid is going to jam on engine number 3 @ 40,000 Ft.
The main tests are done by 2 of us, listening, and deciding how/what/why we feel the tested cable preforms in relation to a known reference point, we indendify the strenghts and weekinesses, and make (or try to) *adjustments* to give the desired results, sometimes it doesn't happen, others it does.
In essence Adam we use a mixture of Basic scientific principles, quality materials, our own experiance in relation to cables sounds, and various treatment methods and unique wire blends, oh and that most important ingredient our ears. I can't be anymore open than that. Could if be we've found a brand new type of super conductor
answers on a post card Wm
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Tony,
Thanks again for the reply.
Cables are not all the same. Notwithstanding exceptional circumstances, their differences, however, whilst measurable, do not have any physical relevance to the sonic differences often described. The conclusion can only be a psychological one borne of sensory appreciation.
You have to believe. And, if you do believe, you'll never question. If you do question, you'll never believe...
Thanks again for the reply.
Cables are not all the same. Notwithstanding exceptional circumstances, their differences, however, whilst measurable, do not have any physical relevance to the sonic differences often described. The conclusion can only be a psychological one borne of sensory appreciation.
You have to believe. And, if you do believe, you'll never question. If you do question, you'll never believe...
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Adam,
We'll agree to disagree on this emotive matter, thanks for your input. Tone
Sorry to drag this up again, but this is how it started with mr hit and run 'spxy' :
Am i misunderstanding all of this wrong? no one seems to want to answer me, but i'll ask anyway. It seems that everyone believes in some objective/subjective parallel universe, so we'll go along with that. So therefore do you believe that music is a subjective experience in this arranged world? I'll presume yes?!! In which case, what is the relevance of trying to establish and prove whether or not one audio component is 'better' than another in this objective reality which you envisage. Are you trying to say that if Cable A was proved to be better than Cable B, you would therefore buy cable A even if you preferred the music coming through Cable B!! And if not, then WTF is the whole exercise in aid off. Will someone please clarify this please? Sorry to harp on, now i'm out the gang.
As Tony says, 'use your ears', surely? And with respect to everyone therefore, and as Joel pointed out, what is all the preaching about, on both camps. Weird. Not that i'm bothered by i it.
And if it sounds like i give a shit, i don't really, just that i'm passing a few hours at work.
Am i misunderstanding all of this wrong? no one seems to want to answer me, but i'll ask anyway. It seems that everyone believes in some objective/subjective parallel universe, so we'll go along with that. So therefore do you believe that music is a subjective experience in this arranged world? I'll presume yes?!! In which case, what is the relevance of trying to establish and prove whether or not one audio component is 'better' than another in this objective reality which you envisage. Are you trying to say that if Cable A was proved to be better than Cable B, you would therefore buy cable A even if you preferred the music coming through Cable B!! And if not, then WTF is the whole exercise in aid off. Will someone please clarify this please? Sorry to harp on, now i'm out the gang.
As Tony says, 'use your ears', surely? And with respect to everyone therefore, and as Joel pointed out, what is all the preaching about, on both camps. Weird. Not that i'm bothered by i it.
And if it sounds like i give a shit, i don't really, just that i'm passing a few hours at work.
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hello hello!!!
Ok, if nobody replies this time i'll let it slip away and not post again.
WTF?!
Ok, if nobody replies this time i'll let it slip away and not post again.
WTF?!
I think you've missed the point.
The objective isn't to determine 'better', that's a matter of personal taste, but 'different'.
It's easy to measure differences between cables, CDPs, amps, whatever, but are these differences audible? The only way to find out is a listening test. And the only reliable listening tests are done double blind.
It's quite alright not to be interested in audible differences, to choose hifi and its environment on any other basis, whatever makes you happy with your music.
Paul
You're right, i've missed the point
I thought it was about the music, not the hardware.
hardware >>>>>>> music
'audible differences'>>>>>>>'better'/worse music
I don't see the point, unless one just wants to tabulate abstract figures in peculiar listening scenarios for the sheer thrill of it. In which case, why not buy a chemistry set and a few tools, rather than hifi equipment.
And how exactly do you go about regulating The biggest variable in a double blind listening test?
What exactly does 'reliable' mean?
Absolutely nothing.
I thought it was about the music, not the hardware.
hardware >>>>>>> music
'audible differences'>>>>>>>'better'/worse music
I don't see the point, unless one just wants to tabulate abstract figures in peculiar listening scenarios for the sheer thrill of it. In which case, why not buy a chemistry set and a few tools, rather than hifi equipment.
And how exactly do you go about regulating The biggest variable in a double blind listening test?
What exactly does 'reliable' mean?
Absolutely nothing.
It means the test is using your ears and not your eyes, nose, emotional attachment to a particular colour of wire, whatever. A listening test.
Companies market very expensive wires (for instance) on the basis that they sound better for reasons that have no technical explanation. It's surely not unreasonable to ask whether the stuff works as claimed or not, and the only way is to do a listening test.
At some point in the spectrum of hifi tweakery most people will reach a personal 'bollocks' threshold. Perhaps putting photos of yourself into the icebox, perhaps suspending your speaker cables off the floor, perhaps using orders of magnitude over-rated mains spurs. The list is endless and infinitely expensive. With no demonstrable benefits to the sound. There are cheaper ways to adjust your attitude or inner tranquility, and the left over cash could be spent on music. So, IMO, bollocks/not bollocks matters in a fundamental way.
Paul
Companies market very expensive wires (for instance) on the basis that they sound better for reasons that have no technical explanation. It's surely not unreasonable to ask whether the stuff works as claimed or not, and the only way is to do a listening test.
At some point in the spectrum of hifi tweakery most people will reach a personal 'bollocks' threshold. Perhaps putting photos of yourself into the icebox, perhaps suspending your speaker cables off the floor, perhaps using orders of magnitude over-rated mains spurs. The list is endless and infinitely expensive. With no demonstrable benefits to the sound. There are cheaper ways to adjust your attitude or inner tranquility, and the left over cash could be spent on music. So, IMO, bollocks/not bollocks matters in a fundamental way.
Paul
This must be where i am going wrong. I don't share this ability to turn off the rest of my 'systems', and operate robotically with complete detachment using only my ears and a splice of brain matter containing independently operated audio analysis processing chips.
So.
No.
Agreed - if it sounds as good as they say it does, the stuff works as claimed?
I don't see how it matters what you do? IF IT SOUNDS BETTER, IT IS BETTER.
But if you get a few of these double blind tests arranged, then hopefully proof will exist of The best cable. Of course there will only be one. Which makes it easy for everyone when they go to purchase a new cable. Only one on the shelf - blurb reads - defeated every other cable in existence in double blind tests corroborated and authenticated by top respected science bods from around the globe - fab. Only then, this forum would be redundant. Of course, they could maybe do different colours. Or not. Is colour subject to science? Is there a best colour?
I forgot, its not about preference its about differences (audible or otherwise), thats where i was going wrong?! Blue is 14 quibits 360degrees West of Red and effects the sound to the nth degree of leading edge attack on the 49th and 91st HZ sine waves, with a twist of rumba wumba and extra sizzle on the cymbols. Great - can stick that on the packet so that the consumer can make an informed choice?!?!?!
Do you prefer Red or Blue!!!
I can see it now. An official blind test set up in NASA HQ, funded by Bush admin and all world governments. Top politicians, investors, socialites, A list celebrities, celebrated physicists, a squadron of paparazzi, nervous manufacturers, and Ken Kessler. They barely fit into the rocket garage. Years in the preperation. Everything is geared to go, Science is shaking its fist in the Red corner, God is shaking his ass in the Blue corner, nothing can go wrong in the arena of the Gods...........the cables are lined up....and suddenly....a hairs breath away from the result, DSOTM comes to a climax on the disc spinner, the cables have been subjected to a rigorous scientific shafting......the rabble at the back have their dollars at the ready for the winner, and a pile of crap for the loser......suddenly....it happens......independent listener - item number 5634a - big Dave from Bury cries in agony.......his diahorrea is playing up again.
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