Problems with tests

[wolfgang]

Originally posted by bottleneck
Hi TestTone

I am by nature sceptical of cables and their improvements on hifi systems.

I can confirm without question that the two interconnect cables I heard at Tonys (Omiga Audio) have an immediate and very noticeable different sonic character. Chris

You seems very convince by this. Last night I try comparing a pair of £50/m interconnects and the thin black/red freebe after given a challenge. I would say they should be some difference in this extreme example. However, if I was ask to pick it out without knowing which is which it becomes harder. In fact I could not. If you are able without out question tell them apart I assume it was distinguished in similar way? This a very the crucial point.




PS thanks to 'that prick' I still could not get the horrible thought out of my mind.

 

[cookiemonster]

If cables A and B were scientifically 'proven' to be 'different' in both a qualitative and quantitative fashion, as many seem to yearn for, would there still be a difference if you couldn't hear one?




If you were bereft of all senses would you still be alive?

And would mathematics still 'exist' a priori?

 

[bottleneck]

Originally posted by wolfgang
If you are able without out question tell them apart I assume it was distinguished in similar way? This a very the crucial point.

Hello!

The first thing to point out is that Tonys system is a Wadia 850 plugged straight into a Belcanto IV. This is an incredibly revealing system - its more transparent than any that I have heard.

The tonal difference of the two cables was substantial. Ju2002 was there aswell (and Timpy). There was a significant and easily indentifiable difference.

I wont go into the pluses and minuses of each - it would be different in a different system anyway.

I would say that the difference was as great as some differences Ive heard with .. a TT to a CDP, or a valve amp to a solid state amp.

I believe the interconnects go for 250 and 450 or thereabouts.

If you are ever in the UK its worth hearing the difference if you dont think interconnects can change the sound.

I think interconnects, speaker cables and to a lesser extent power cables can all change sound. Power cables to the smallest degree of the three.

Whether that change is an improvement is down to system choice and individual discretion IMO.

 

[wolfgang]

Greetings.

This suggestion seems to have good common sense. To hear subtle differences will require the very best and revealing equipments.

Unfortunately in my most humble opinion there is a glaring gap in evidence. It is all about the sound. Do they actually have audible differences to human ears? Some of you claim you could hear it. If you can demonstrate it then I will accept mine is not as good.

Sometimes amateurs try to ridicule self proclaimed wine aficionado how could one could justify paying £100-10,000 for a bottle of red wine. Surely these do not taste any different to all the thousands of other reds available. True aficionados are more then willing to take up the challenge.

They straight away offer to be tested by the undisputed standard that everyone will be impressed by the Blind Test. To rub it in the not only they could identify the label they go on to identify the grapes, region of the vineyard and cap it off with the year.

Is there any group out there with audiophile's pretension who are willing to be put to the (at least to the second golden standard) challenge known as the Single Blind Test?

If audiophiles cables exist then show us you could pick it out under duress. What are these characteristics that make the sound of the system so much better that you could hear it without reading the label first?

 

[Paul Duerden]

Surely it is beneficial to take a blind test before spending a lot of money on a cable. You are then absolutely sure that you have not been influenced by marketing or peer pressure but really can hear the difference.

I would advise against the blind test after spending a lot of money however.

 

[wadia-miester]

Adam, (Test Tone)

A piece of wire is at it's very basic level is atoms bonded together to form said piece, we can view these atomic particles through high powered electron microscopes. and note the differences within various structures of materials at the atomic level, we can even list and catologue them, however do we truely understand them (yet) ?
Now, cables, with measurements, lets for example say I have 15 different pieces of wire (bare unshielded) the all measure the same capastance/inductance/impedence/resistance, if we hook them up the same way, same equipment, then by your theroy they'll all sound the same no difference, sorry Adam, fraid not.
Let say materials are different thickness, and diameter (same capatance/inductance), for example with 1mm diameter piece of 99.99% pure silver sound the same as a 99.99% 1m diameter piece of copper or gold ?
Certainly not in my experiance, what about multiple alloys too?

Adam begged the question...

"Any potential difference in sonic character must, then, be as a consequence of a differing set of measurable parameters. Naturally, the measured change must be directly relevant to a potential change in sonic character (ie the change not simply being a difference in capacitance, for example, but that the capacitance of one cable can be proven to be directly relevant to a change in sonic character - which is simple in mathematics)."

Ok, Adam please quantify potential difference in sonic charactor as an equation ? *****.
Certainly the following will have some bearing for sure
Resistance has to be taken into account for sure, so alone the lines of
R=L/CA where R-resistance, L=Length, C=Conductivity, A=Cross sectional area.
Conductor materials, most popular being high purity Silvers & coppers, although some of us may not use these , and or a combination of other alloys materials, all with differing properties.
Maybe if you follow the rules, low capacitance and conductance designs are *Required* to achive that must have sound that wouldn't be any different from another piece of wire.
Dielectric and insulation are important critera for, shite free transmission of 'unhinded base signals' is the goal, many variables, such as wire length and diameter ,dielectric properties, the number and size of the insulators, the way the wire is *run* too, all to have an effect on the final mix (imho).
How about this then, suppose I have 2 indenticaly measuring cables, yet sonicaly they are chalk and cheese?, yet measure point for point equal, so is this then a 'imagination thing' ? my physdo-acosutic brain telling me what 'I feel I need to know' ?, or maybe some other measurable quantity, we haven't measured yet?. or something we can't explain?
Now let us reverse the senero, lets say we have 2 cables sounding very similar (minute differences), yet measure poles apart?, what then ?
I understand the question and a valid one too, I don't have all the answers, and will never profess to either.
When I worked on the digital pegasus jet engine fuel system, ever possible concieveable measurement & check, double check was taken from raw material analaysis sheets, to final pass off, triple check, measured ultrasonic, x/ray/ eletron microscope inspection was done at ever step of the way, aerospace industry doesn't want planes falling out the sky, from sloppy construction practices, now thats aerospace , this is cables, not flying planes, I understand that a lot of manufacturers prices and hype is more than 'fruity' without question, and that yes a piece of wire is a piece of wire to the vast majoury of the popluation let alone hifi buffs.
However, no matter how much, one says yes they is a difference, the other say will say bollox prove it, show me a scope trace, show me full spectrum scan, etc.
Adam, I'm sure that if I could find the 'golden ratio' that makes a cable/ sonicaly distingusiable from another, in algerbraic form I make a fortune mate, until then my indenticaly same sonicaly sounding pieces of metallic propergation distribution devices, will be available for aural delictation and scrutiny. Tone

Potential equation for sonic charactoristic change quantifiably


Need to hear a change= NHC
System Tinker factor=STF
Must spend money=MSM
Sounds naff to me=SNTM


SNTM+STF*NHC/NSM=HFC

 

[wolfgang]

Originally posted by wadia-miester
Adam, (Test Tone)
.. how about this then, suppose I have 2 indenticaly measuring cables, yet sonicaly they are chalk and cheese

Hope you don't mind I come in at this point.

Finally it is good to hear people still speak in the language that inspires confidence. When it comes to the subject of cable engineering most of us seems to remove our empirical mind and only use the mystical side to dominate. Perhaps you could finally direct me to the source for this statement of yours.

Is this simply forum chat hypothesis or it is an acknowledge fact of science. Where is the reference for this statement?

If it is simply a hypothesis with no evidence that it does occur then should you not put your energy to see if it is an irrefutable fact before you even start to speculate and look for further measurable parameters.

 

[wadia-miester]

Wolfgang,

Why does this subject so bother you?, how we (Timpy & myself) design, use for reference, measure, decide which material to select, which process to use (if any) and what data we have accquired over the last 18 months, is OUR methods no one elses, I could state we just pick a cable at random and slap a label on it that would please the knockers. However we don't, like a small select group, we produce and make ALL our own cables to our spec's, and we feel they make a difference, weather you like the difference is purely personal.
This is not the case, all I will say here, is that we have extensive real-time analaysis or over 150 cables (from other manufacturers) and many more GB's of information for our specific formula's and construction tecniques of our cables. Our Own R&D time and equipment, and blood sweat & tears.
Now I know what ever I post, will be shot at, by 44 Ack ack guns, so to be honest, It's not worth the grief, but maybe if you would like to "take the taste test" yourself then please feel free, Use your ears, be as sceptical as you want, but use your ears. Wm

 

[wolfgang]

Greetings again. I am truly not bothered but most fascinated with the whole affairs.

It is extremely interesting to hear that you have go to the extent of building, measuring and listening to cables in a way which is closer to scientific enquiry and not by means of the art of black magic. I appreciate why you would not wish to share your experiences in this forum as more then likely it will be ridicule by unappreciative readers.

I am trying to listen to hifi toys with closer focus and blind testing to see how many of it actually has substance and not due to self induced illusion. The branded audiophile interconnects is selected first simply because I have a few and also seems to have acquire the most controversy. So far I have never heard any differences. However, tons of people claim they have experienced the audible differences or improvements. These are reported when using hifi electronics in all price brackets and listening experience from novice to golden ears. Lately there are a few who report they never did. Perhaps it is time to quantify these differences like how many could actually hear it for start under blind testing. Maybe I should get my ears checked and if there is nothing wrong with it then will educate them further.

Recently according to a few professional contributors in audio magazines that there is actually no good scientific data that there is such a thing refers to audiophile cables or more accurately the existence of better then standard version of electrical conductors for the appreciation of electronic gears. I am asking in your reading is this true?

 

[Robbo]

Need to hear a change= NHC
System Tinker factor=STF
Must spend money=MSM
Sounds naff to me=SNTM


SNTM+STF*NHC/NSM=HFC

LOL

 

[cookiemonster]

So far I have never heard any differences

Wolfgang,

I repeat, (i'm presuming i'm still allowed to chat? - either that or i'm talking shite again)

If cables A and B were scientifically 'proven' to be 'different' in both a qualitative and quantitative fashion, confirmed in blood by the worlds most trusted and honoured men in white coats, would there still be a difference if you couldn't hear one?

What is the purpose of your enquiry? If you are trying to 'prove' that there is no difference via the vehicle of scientific enquiry, do you suspect that your ears are deficient? If your ears are deficient, how can you be sure that you are hearing the science correctly. Which do you trust more, your ears, or the ears of your neighbour who you are supposedly hearing. Or do you wish to bring the gullible 'black magic' followers over from the dark side to the fountain of truth, to save them from debt and blindness through an act of benevolence.

Just pick the cable that looks nicest if they sound no different!

Although, of course, i forgot, how do you prove which is the most aesthetically pleasing cable?

 

[notaclue]

I if can answer cookiemonster's question, I would say if "men in white coats" could 'prove' cables sound different in a double blind test (let me just duck my head for mentioning b***d testing) then I would accept that if I couldn't hear a difference that either my ears or my hi-fi weren't good enough. I think most sensible people would too. After all, people who are colour blind can't distinguish between some shades of red and green but I doubt they think that this means these colours aren't different.

I can understand why Robbo had his rant about blind testing. But a couple of points. I think people who, like me, are less experinced in hi-fi read the forums/newsgroups for advice and ideas from those more experienced. Unfortunately (because it is tedious) or fortunately (because it may save me money) this means 'finding out' about all this blind testing stuff. It has made me question just how different cables, CD players etc. are and if claims of massive improvements do really exist. In fact, it has made me very sceptical about much of hi-fi in general.

I was quite suprised to learn that blind tests were not used/supported by people to prove that they can hear differences but rather it seems invariably they are used by sceptics to disprove differences. As wolfgang says, in wine tasting it is the other way round.

I don't think it's up to forum members to prove this. As pointed out this is just a hobby for us. But I would just like a magazine, say, with experienced, full-time hi-fi reviewers to at least attempt some genuine blind tests with cables (even if one is £10,000 and one is £10) and draw some decent conclusions. And if said blind test were to show reviewer X could reliably distinguish between 2 cables then I think cable 'believers' would certainly change their minds about the usefullness of blind tests and this would be great (the best?) evidence to use against the 'cables sound no different' crowd.

Personally, I should add that I used to believe I heard differences in cables (though only subtle ones but I was using reasonably cheap cables and my system is a long way from hi-end) but, since doubting that this is possible, now I don't hear differences. I think it is only fair that people have both sides and can decide for themselves and this may mean some hard truths for both sides e.g. some people may be imagining differences, some peoples ears/hi-fi may simply not be good enough.

 

[wolfgang]

Ha ha ha ha.

Notaclue answer your question first.

I can see what you are getting at. I don't give a dame how others spend their money. Maybe I admit to feeling a bit indignant when people seem to go around spreading myths against scientific knowledge thus far. That is my personal fault. However, I am only answerable to the great scientific teachers in the ancient times when it comes to that sin.

So far I could only think of 2 explanations. My hearing is very bad or we are all deluding ourselves.

 

[cookiemonster]

I would say if "men in white coats" could 'prove' cables sound different in a double blind test (let me just duck my head for mentioning b***d testing) then I would accept that if I couldn't hear a difference that either my ears or my hi-fi weren't good enough

Personally, I should add that I used to believe I heard differences in cables (though only subtle ones but I was using reasonably cheap cables and my system is a long way from hi-end) but, since doubting that this is possible, now I don't hear differences. I think it is only fair that people have both sides and can decide for themselves and this may mean some hard truths for both sides e.g. some people may be imagining differences, some peoples ears/hi-fi may simply not be good enough.

notaclue,

Its irrelevent whether the effects are imagined or 'real' is it not?
If smearing jam on your cd's makes 'em sound better, what difference does it make?

I just hope a scientist never tells you to eat your own turds.

Though of course i am basing this on my assumption that turds taste like shit. It may well taste like ice cream to you, and strawberry jelly to the scientist, in which case you could dine together.

 

[cookiemonster]

Wolfgang,

why do you need to explain it??

does it sound good? yes/no, end of story.

If someone sticks a thorn up your ass and its painful do you get out your toolkit and test tubes, slice off a piece of butt flesh and investigate the properties of human meat which determine the manner in which pain is translated to the brain. NO. Just turn round and lamp the bugger who pricked your ass and move on.

Don't feel left out because someone reckons a £1k cable gives them regular orgasms. Let them enjoy it. Just jerk off for the same effect if that kicks your bucket. Or just tell me that blind testing kicks your bucket and i'll happily buy you a blindfold.

 

[notaclue]

Originally posted by cookiemonster
notaclue,

Its irrelevent whether the effects are imagined or 'real' is it not?
If smearing jam on your cd's makes 'em sound better, what difference does it make?

I just hope a scientist never tells you to eat your own turds.

Well, I presume no decent scientist would tell me to eat my own turds. Though, if they did, they would hopefully have a very good reason why I should. But I wouldn't put it past some hi-fi folks to claim smearing turd on your speaker drive units improves bass. Actually, on second thoughts, I would put it past them...let's drop the turd issue...

"Its irrelevent whether the effects are imagined or 'real' is it not?" Good point. But in order for this to be true it infers that there is some way to find out if the effects are real or imaginary. If so, what is this method?

As we don't listen to hi-fi in blind test conditions, it is perfectly reasonable and understandable for people to choose to buy something that may make an imaginary difference. And to them the effect will be as real as, er, a 'real' effect. But I think it's perfectly reasonable to point out the effect may be imagined. So long as it's not done in a nasty way.

 

[cookiemonster]

Well, I presume no decent scientist would tell me to eat my own turds. Though, if they did, they would hopefully have a very good reason why I should

The reason would be irrelevent. so long as it was scientific 'fact'. So hopefully you will enjoy it. With all probability, you would enjoy it, as the process of eating your own turds would now be a real event, and not some horror story of the imagination.

"Its irrelevent whether the effects are imagined or 'real' is it not?" Good point. But in order for this to be true it infers that there is some way to find out if the effects are real or imaginary. If so, what is this method?

well to put it another way....if a cable sounds better to you is it not automatically 'real'. But then maybe it IS imaginary. But then again maybe scientific proof is imaginary? What is 'imaginary' anyway? What method?

As we don't listen to hi-fi in blind test conditions, it is perfectly reasonable and understandable for people to choose to buy something that may make an imaginary difference. And to them the effect will be as real as, er, a 'real' effect

But I think it's perfectly reasonable to point out the effect may be imagined. So long as it's not done in a nasty way.

Of course, you're a lunatic.

 

[cookiemonster]

BTW, I may be imagining things, but a micro system doesn't sound as good as a seperates system. Luckily, i am informed that this is a real phenomenon, hence i am explicitly not a lunatic by all accounts.

 

[wolfgang]

After listening to this exchange Cookiemoster you should declare your interest in this subject matter. Are you a hifi dealer or manufacturer or in any other form will benefit from ridiculing people dare to reveal your the perfect marketing ploy. Just buy it if it sounds good. Who cares if it is only imagination and a dream?

 

[cookiemonster]

After listening to this exchange Cookiemoster you should declare your interest in this subject matter

Well my interest is purely one of dialogue and friendly banter. I am probably the only member of this forum without a hifi. My interest extends to previously owning hifi equipment and more than a passing interest in music. I didn't realise i was ridiculing you, but it is easy done these days.

Are you a hifi dealer or manufacturer or in any other form will benefit from ridiculing people dare to reveal your the perfect marketing ploy. Just buy it if it sounds good. Who cares if it is only imagination and a dream?

Anyway, so all this stuff is the substance of unreality (whatever that is?) Why is this important to you? Can 'dreams' not be 'better' than 'reality' anyway in this strange bipolar world that you have configured. What are you searching for - a good sounding hifi, or the ultimate truth of the universe?

Surely, if it sounds good why is anything else important? (I would benefit if you could answer this question ) Call it market research