[Review] Getting animated

[TonyL]

The Phonosophie box certainly does something - it shines a blue light and separates a lot of gullible people from a lot of their money (CHF1198 (£492) ). I can attest to this because I have one sitting beside me right now - I found that the Swiss distributor of Phonosophie's stuff is just over the Jura from me, so I nipped over and borrowed one and have been playing with it all afternoon - to precisely no effect. No time to report further now, but will write more next week.

Excellent news. It is now your sworn duty to the audio community to reverse engineer this thing. I'm interested to find out exactly what one needs to add to a blue LED in order to charge £500 quid for it. I'm sure I'm not the only one...

Tony.

[edit] Damn, just seen your mention that it's sealed. They are no fools. I'd love to stick it in front of a mic with an extended HF response...

 

[Effem]

Since I'm on the air, no, Frank, none at all. It's a flattish, brushed aluminium cylinder, 120mm diam, 34mm h. There is a plug for the power supply (6V) on the side. The bottom is black and sealed, so that getting inside without wrecking the thing is impossible. It's quite heavy and it rattles lightly when shaken, as if there was some sand loose inside.

Thanks Tone.

 

[dehavillandrfc]

Let me explain again...

If not, and all favourable comment so far is based on non-blind listening tests it is seriously unwise to rule out the placebo effect.
Tony.

This is a misunderstanding of the term 'placebo'. When patients in drug trials take a placebo rather than the drug being tested a small percentage will see real improvement in their phyiscal condition even though the drug they are taking is pharmacologically inactive. How this happens is not well understand but what is clear is the improvement in the patient's condition is real and not 'imagined'.

I presume what you are trying to say is that people who experience a difference in the reproduction of their system as a result of such a product are undergoing a subjective experience that has no physical reality, and that this difference is because they 'believe' there will be one. In this case the mechanism involved would be auto-suggestion.

 

[dehavillandrfc]

The Phonosophie box certainly does something - it shines a blue light and separates a lot of gullible people from a lot of their money (CHF1198 (£492) ). I can attest to this because I have one sitting beside me right now - I found that the Swiss distributor of Phonosophie's stuff is just over the Jura from me, so I nipped over and borrowed one and have been playing with it all afternoon - to precisely no effect. No time to report further now, but will write more next week.

Did you hear no effect because you believe there won't be any?

I think we should be told... :MILD:

 

[Jimbo]

I heard the device this morning as Pete said. First of all though i must say that we put in place Davidf's feet under the DEQ and three of petes homemade ones under the cd player. Pete did admit he didnt do a very good job of his feet as they where of unequal height.
Taking that into view they most certainly were an improvement on the stock feet and the chiropody stones, giving a tighter bass and overall balanced sound. So i will experiment with some of my own in the near future. Thanks David for a good and cheap upgrade which who knows could even be improved upon further.

Next the device was plugged into an extension cable so it could be placed between the speakers and roughly a foot forward of them. It needed a minute to warm up or whatever it needed to do as my room is small. Something was happening to the sound, not an in your face way but subtle, though the higher freq's did seem to push forward. I thought there was more energy especially in the higher frequencies down to the midrange. The bass again seemed to have a bit more grunt but i felt the mid range was unchanged. The soundstage widened as i noted one or two things i never heard on some of my cd's before. I would have liked to have had the device for the evening for critical listening as thats when i would be on my own and in my normal environment, but couldn't prise it from Pete's hands. If i had the chance to listen to it myself its possible it would be hard for me to let it go but i wont know that unless i tried it.

This is what genuinely happened. I may have missed something out in the listening but this is roughly to me how it sounded.

Looking at the device, there were no visible screws so no peeping inside. So looks like a possible machine pressed fixing. It has some weight for a unit of about four or five inch diameter and about two inches high, as the top is made of alluminium. So the base plate is made of something heavier or as i commented, could be a large magnet or transformer inside or perhaps both. Quartz crystals are definitley inside as thats what it says underneath which rattle when you shake it. I would like to know whats inside but it needs someone to buy it and open it up.

All i have said in this review is true as to the best of my knowledge.

 

[sq225917]

tones, given that you openly admit that you can't hear any difference between cables or struggle to hear much difference between some music sources,i think we can all pretty much assume you really are tone -deaf.

 

[sq225917]

I'm all sceptic.. really i am..

i awaited Petes arrival and expected to hear nothing, no chnage, nada, jesus im even currently reading 'the god delusion' by Dawkins, honestly they dont come any more sceptical than me.

I've got silver loudspeaker cables that i can't say with any good faith make an appreciable difference, other than the fact that i like the way they look and it makes me feel all warm inside to think that they might be doing something, on a good day i might even perceive that they do make a diffference.

(just for clarity, from experience i do know that speaker cables make a difference, it's just that in my current well powered sysetm with senstive speakers i think this is hugely reduced. As opposed to my mains cables, which are night and day different).

but the fact remains that i did perceive the unit to make an apprecable difference, not £400+ difference, but i'd certainly waste/invest £100 on one.


if some pople in alternative circumstances don't hear a difference then thats great for them, but that doesn't affect what i heard. unless it really is just an LED in a sandy box in which case i'm a delusional CNUT..

i suggest we all chip in a few pounds to find out and crack one open. or at the very least agree to group buy if phonoshophie open one up...

 

[bottleneck]

tones, given that you openly admit that you can't hear any difference between cables or struggle to hear much difference between some music sources,i think we can all pretty much assume you really are tone -deaf.

SQ..

I don't think we can assume that at all.

I can rarely hear the difference between interconnects or power cables for examples, and many sources sound the same, particularly cd players.

As part of a medical for a former employer, I know that my hearing is above average. I'm an amateur musician too, not that I find that relevant.

By your logic I'd be deaf too, and as described I'm clearly not.

One thing I would like to see - is the measured in-room effects of music playing through a hifi both with, and without the device.

Contrasting traces from professional calibrated equipment would put an end to this.

 

[DavidF]

"Thanks David for a good and cheap upgrade "

You're welcome

Thanks for the +ve feedback.

 

[Effem]

tones, given that you openly admit that you can't hear any difference between cables or struggle to hear much difference between some music sources,i think we can all pretty much assume you really are tone -deaf.

I have word wrangled with Tones over a few years now from opposite sides of the divide and I have never once thought he's got a hearing defect. He says he regularly has his ears checked and found to be OK and I have no reason to doubt what he says.

I do think however that:-

Tones has lost the romantic sentimentalist notions that us more fervent audiophools are blessed/afflicted with.

Much like the human brain can actually reduce loud noises like road drills to a tolerable level, so too Tones can and does switch off his ability to get excited over little bits of tweakery like cables with subtle benefits. It has to knock himn off his seat to get his attention

Tones is intrinsically a tightwad. :respect:

 

[Tenson]

If someone wants to send me one of these devices I will happily take a barrage of in-room measurements with and without the unit active as well as see if I can directly detect anything coming from it.

 

[sideshowbob]

The thread has shown that AN EFFECT has taken place - a repeatable and consistent on command effect, the origins of which remain unknown.

Er, what consistent and repeatable effect? A few people have reported that they think their hifi sounds different with this device plugged in. Two others (Markus Sauer, who I know from experience is knowledgeable about hifi and is by no means sceptical in general about audio tweaks; and Tony, who is a sceptic but who I also know from experience has very good taste in hifi), have reported no difference at all. Nobody has yet determined whether the device has any measurable effect on sound.

If a repeatable and consistent audible effect had been proven, I'd have no argument. But we're a long way from establishing that is the case. So, let's not get carried away.

The rest of your post seems like a lot of speculation about the motives of "scientifically orientated posters". All very fascinating, but all very wide of the mark, since (a) you know nothing at all about my motives; and (b) I'm a thoroughgoing subjectivist when it comes to audio. (It's because I'm a subjectivist that I reject tweaks, it's my listening experience with so many of them that tells me the effect is generally in my head rather than reality.) I object quite strongly to companies telling me pseudo-scientific lies to sell their products, however, and get quite exasperated when their customers treat them as if they had any weight at all.

I look forward to Zanash taking up Tenson's offer to carry out some proper measurements on this thing.

-- Ian

 

[Effem]

Ah then, so you have merely skipped over the posts and not read them fully as I have. I suggest you start from scratch because you have missed some important evidence because of your bias.

So what makes you think that you have the exclusive right to accept or reject something as working or not by subjective means? I'm not dismissing or supporting this very expensive little box of mystery in any way, shape, or form, but what I am questioning however is some of the appalling lack of respect in the judgement of others by the naysayers and in every one of these debates it is always the default situation. An audiophool is being portrayed here and on other fora like a junkie that must have his fix of the latest mystery box to come onto the market and we have to sell even our conjugal rights to keep up the supply of useless gadgets to slake our ungovernable lust for new toys. I'll tell you why, it's because that would knock them off what they perceive to be the high ground, plus it would severely rust the armour of all the shining knights that come along to defend us weak hi-fi hobbyists from these merciless villains who peddle this hi-fi jewellery.

I am every bit as mentally agile and capable as you or any other cynic to accept or reject any one of these baubles as a useful addition to my hobby, or consign it to the huge pile of piss-takes that are in abundance on the market. I don't need a nanny to tell me a curved bit of Mopani Wood should be in my fish tank not in my listening room posing as a sound absorber, nor will you find ceramic cable lifters in a procession across my carpet because shock and horror I could, without the aid of a lifeguard and safety net, discern on my own that there was no audible difference whatsoever, no matter how much expectation I may or may not have had.

I have had some frighteningly expensive items of tweakery through my hands for evaluation and they went out of my hands again even quicker so I still have my conjugal rights thank you and I'm also pleased to say I had an open mind beforehand and still afterwards on their merits or otherwise, but I used the one tool that was more useful to me than any marketing blurb, wiggly graph, magazine review, peer reviewed hypothesis, or jingoistic enthusiasm from others and that was my own ears. Now if it can pass those two highly critical tests of my ears and more importantly my wallet, what use is it to me having more information that tells me nothing?

I'm pleased though that I have managed to get this thread off it's negativity tramlines and get people thinking along the lines of A) Is there something to be heard, and B) use a logical process to analyse what it may or not be doing rather than just bitching about it

 

[sideshowbob]

Ah then, so you have merely skipped over the posts and not read them fully as I have. I suggest you start from scratch because you have missed some important evidence because of your bias.

No, I've read the thread very carefully. Nobody has provided any evidence that this unit has any effect in the audio domain.

So what makes you think that you have the exclusive right to accept or reject something as working or not by subjective means?

Nothing whatsoever. People can believe what they like (I've said this repeatedly, perhaps you should take your own advice and read the thread more carefully). But I reserve the right to think they're mistaken unless they can provide some supporting evidence. I'm not demanding they provide me evidence, but they really shouldn't expect me or anyone else to take them seriously until they do. My repeated experience tells me that when I try the tweaks some people rave about on hifi fora they generally turn out to make no difference at all, and I haven't yet seen anything in this thread suggesting anything different. Perhaps Tenson or somebody else will be able to determine that my supposition is wrong, and that the unit really does seem to do something, but that hasn't happened yet.

but what I am questioning however is some of the appalling lack of respect in the judgement of others by the naysayers and in every one of these debates it is always the default situation.

You don't seem to be showing much respect to those who don't believe the device does anything, and that includes at least two posters who have heard it. I suggest you get down off that horse before you have a nasty fall.

An audiophool is being portrayed here and on other fora like a junkie that must have his fix of the latest mystery box to come onto the market

I think there's a very strong element of truth to that, as it happens. Is it very wrong of me to think so, oh hifi guru? Audiophilia is a condition in which people spend an awful lot of time obsessing about small differences and much less time determining whether they really matter or not, IMO. You can disagree if you like, but it's an entirely reasonable view.

I'm pleased though that I have managed to get this thread off it's negativity tramlines and get people thinking along the lines of A) Is there something to be heard, and B) use a logical process to analyse what it may or not be doing rather than just bitching about it

Well, I haven't seen a logical process in your contribution so far, just a lot of impugning of the motives of sceptics, and your own negativity seems pretty clear-cut.

I think you should take more note of your own signature ("Hi-Fi is a clinical addiction - get treatment for it now" seems like fair comment), and perhaps develop a lighter tone and a sense of humour too.

-- Ian

 

[Effem]

That only serves to show that reading forum posts is every bit as subjective as listening to hi-fi systems because I'm obviously assimilating it differently.

I have no qualms at all with genuine sceptics because when I see the word "sceptic" I interpret it as "doubter" which I think is the correct definition. What I'm not happy with is the cynics that say it does not and cannot work in a remote location using hearsay evidence and I have seen far too much of that over the years. I'm more than happy when I'm proved to be wrong, but would the cynics be equally as gracious?

Like I said, I am probably more sceptical of this little box of wizardry than you might possibly be, however proof can fall two ways don't forget and the overall balance at the moment isn't decisive by any means. I would agree that the manufacturer isn't doing anybody any favours by obfuscating how the device allegedly works, but that is no excuse to hang out to dry the listeners that claim to have heard an effect - however subtle.

Futher than that we'll have to agree to disagree, as the thread is about this little box of tricks, not our differences.

 

[zanash]

If someone wants to send me one of these devices I will happily take a barrage of in-room measurements with and without the unit active as well as see if I can directly detect anything coming from it.

contact phonosophie or uberphon .....! its as simple as that.

Thanks jimbo......thats much like What I heard too ...


I'm not certain we should be thinking interms of cost.....there are some member who still think the unit does nothing...

I agree thought the cost is high and represents a great deal of music software.... for me the cost represents about 1/3 of the amount I would need to spend an a similar improvment by a conventional upgrade.

I think that Effem has hit the point squarely on the head ......a sceptic can be persuade either way by argument or his own experience....ie listening to the damn thing.

If you say it can't work because you don't like the press release, or its an affront to your "So call" scientific thinking, then you are not a sceptic as you have already formed an opinion.

To form an opinion on anything without first or even second hand observation is most unscientific..and boarders on the foolish. Not to mention this also indicates an arrogance that deifies belief .

sideshowbob ...what part of your scientific thinking is covered by the following ....

Scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena and acquiring new knowledge, as well as for correcting and integrating previous knowledge. It is based on gathering observable, empirical, measurable evidence, subject to specific principles of reasoning.[1]

Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, there are identifiable features that distinguish scientific inquiry from other methods of developing knowledge. Scientific researchers propose specific hypotheses as explanations of natural phenomena, and design experimental studies that test these predictions for accuracy. These steps are repeated in order to make increasingly dependable predictions of future results. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry serve to bind many specific hypotheses together in a coherent structure. This in turn aids in the formation of new hypotheses, as well as in placing groups of specific hypotheses into a broader context of understanding.

Among other facets shared by the various fields of inquiry is the conviction that the process must be objective to reduce a biased interpretation of the results. Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data and methodology so it is available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This also allows statistical measures of the reliability of these data to be established.

copied from wikipedia

 

[sideshowbob]

I'm more than happy when I'm proved to be wrong, but would the cynics be equally as gracious?

I would certainly be gracious, if believers had ever proved their claims. But they never have, it always comes down to what they believe they hear, but never to anything demonstrable to those who don't hear the same. Some people spend a lot of time promulgating the mystery and unmeasurability of audio, whereas I think it's all rather more prosaic than that. If you can hear it, it's a measurable effect. If you can't measure it, it's in your head. If it makes you happy, I don't care either way, as long as no one makes bogus pseudo-scientific claims for what's happening. If they do, I think they should be ridiculed mercilessly and exposed as fakers. I'm with Blaise Pascal:

"All our dignity consists in thought. By it we must elevate ourselves... Let us endeavour to think well; this is the principle of morality."

i.e., we have an obligation to our own intelligence to try to understand what we experience.

Pete, no problem with anything in your Wikipedia quote. So where's the measurable empirical evidence then? Why not take it round to Tenson, see if he can come up with any? Then you'll have advanced the discussion considerably.

-- Ian

 

[zanash]

You can't have any sort of scientific analysis without results and observations ...to obtain observation you need to have the unit under observation in a controlled environment. Thankfully science is not based on sideshowbobs methodology. Since the only people to have had the unit under observation ie within their own systems and the controlled environments of their listening rooms, they have then provided us with the results of there own ears ....the only valid posts on the possible effectiveness of the unit can only come from these sources. Everything else is speculation and hyperbola.

Tell me why is everyone hearing the same effects ?

if it was a case of mass halucination, placebo, auto suggestion or what ever why do we not get contradictory or dissimilar responces ?

Note ....I have not told any of the people listening to the unit what to expect ....in most case I told them not to be surprised if they heard nothing... After listening ...I asked what they heard rather than trying to lead the conversation ....Not rigorously scientific ...but then it was never meant to be more than a listening exercise.

Tenson lives in Gravesend ....I live in the eastmidlands ....Why not let the distributor give tenson a home demo ? Uberphon are based in petersfield hampshire....thats half the distance I'd have to travel ...seems logical to me. Tenson would get all the latest information as I know they have been over to Germany recently.

 

[TonyL]

You can't have any sort of scientific analysis without results and observations ...to obtain observation you need to have the unit under observation in a controlled environment. Thankfully science is not based on sideshowbobs methodology. Since the only people to have had the unit under observation ie within their own systems and the controlled environments of their listening rooms, they have then provided us with the results of there own ears ....the only valid posts on the possible effectiveness of the unit can only come from these sources. Everything else is speculation and hyperbola.

So far on this thread we have no conclusive findings for this device: you and a couple of others think it works, Tones and Markus can't hear any effect whatsoever. That's about evens in my book - clearly further testing is required.

if it was a case of mass halucination, placebo, auto suggestion or what ever why do we not get contradictory or dissimilar responces ?

See above. These are very contradictory results. As such those of us who have not heard the device in a controlled (or any!) environment, nor read anything even approaching a coherent explanation as to it's function understandably remain sceptical.

Tony.

 

[DavidF]

you and a couple of others think it works,

It goes a bit beyond THAT,Tony.

(I think thats damning it with faint praise.)

I KNOW it did SOMETHING at my place.......that i'm sure of.

(Like some one said....not £700...but I'd pitch in £100 for one.)


Why do I feel as though we are going round in circles here?

Some ones now going to tell me;

1) I imagined it

2) placebo

3) where a pendant instead....(not terribly convinced...)

4) whatever.......


I, too, would be interested to get the relavent electronic instruments (whatever they may be) and scientifically establish an XYZ differennce (on a meter screen) between a/b....(though I apppreciate the difficulties of doing this)

...I do maintain though that the gadget made a similar sonic diiference to my kit as installing my new valve amp.........thats soem thing the most sceptical of sceptics would purchase I think?





regs,



David