So the mains then

Originally posted by michaelab
How the hell is one supposed to tell the difference then between a real change and a placebo effect?
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Isn't that why people have bake-offs?

At these events, attendees can listen to products they haven't made a financial commitment to and can listen to them without the so called placebo effect in place.

ram
________
Vaporizer Store
 
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Originally posted by ram
At these events, attendees can listen to products they haven't made a financial commitment to and can listen to them without the so called placebo effect in place.
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But another effect takes place there. It's called the peer group pressure effect :D

Michael.
 
Just my tuppence worth on the placebo effect comments in this thread...

One thing that makes me absolutely sure that there are real differences between cables, of whatever type, is that sometimes they do the exact opposite of my pre-concepton or what I'm looking to improve. For example I am at the moment demoing some of Frontfloater's Mithril speaker cable. This consists of 0.7mm diameter solid silver conductors, which my pre-conceptions told me was likely to be very detailed, and possibly bright, and perhaps a bit lacking in the bass department. Now I'm trying them there is absolutely no problem with bass and I'm actually wondering if they may be too smooth for my tastes!
 
Having played with a variety of purchased and DIY mains cables over a number of years, I feel my Two pence worth may be better value than some of the post so far.

It's my opinion that mains cables [the hifi one's] are really mains filters. The firstly from the eupen site, if you vist it , they clearly state that their ferrite loaded cables act as filters. Farnell used to sell Eupen a few years back and they advised that at least 2m lengths should be used to get the full effect.
The simple expedient of crossing cables at or near 90 degrees has a interference canceling effect, so building a plaited cable like the TNT TTS where the strands are constantly crossing back and forth, will produce a intresting cancelation effect. Now I'm a relatively sceptical person who likes to see empirical evidence or hear it, so for many years held the same view as joolsberger.

I mean how can a small length of wire change the sound ?

But once you've heared the effects there's no going back. You change that free lead for the Eupen or TNT TTS its " bloody hell where did those instraments or sounds come from.

So my advice is beg borrow or make a power cable, if you don't hear anything ....you just may be the only person in the country who doesn't suffer RFI or EMI !
 
two quotes I remember from forum members spring to mind. Top prize goes to whoever remembers who said them...

'' Here we go round the mulberry bush ''

'' a product should be judged on the effect that it has ''

hmm.

At bake-offs interesting conclusions are drawn with brawdly similar feelings, which is perculiar when you consider how diverse forum members views are.

At bake-offs and other places I have established that changing the power cable CAN sometimes change the sound.

Is it an improvement?
Is the improvement justified by the cost?

Down to the individual I think.

On the second quote above -

'' a product should be judged on the effect that it has ''

You could say that margin on the product is irrelevant.

To some extent this is true.

However, I cant escape the thought '' you cheeky cheeky ba***rd, who do you think you are charging THAT for THAT!''

I think a lot of people would take mains treatments more seriously if prices were kept at reasonable levels.

''Reasonable Prices'' and ''High end audio'' dont seem to mix though.... perhaps the whole problem is that ''perceived value'' is difficult to swallow when design and production costs are very low.

IF a Eupen cost £30, and a Shunyata cost £100 (as examples), I think the whole mains treatment section of the industry would gain interest and respect. What do you think?

Chris
 
Originally posted by bottleneck
IF a Eupen cost £30, and a Shunyata cost £100 (as examples), I think the whole mains treatment section of the industry would gain interest and respect. What do you think?
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Well, a Eupen doesn't cost that much more than £30 (£48) but I agree with what you say. My "mains treatments" are all from the relatively cheap end of the spectrum - Eupen cords and Olson blocks, no power conditioners. I'm not going to investigate more expensive solutions, that way lies madness.

And to add, what you said about mains treatment could just as easily be said about the cable industry in general. I mean how the f*ck does Nordost get away with what they charge for their cables? Not to mention Siltech's "Signature" range: £11K for a 2m run of speaker cables or £5K for a 1m pair of single-ended ICs. I mean that has just got to be utter bollox :bub: It didn't stop Ken Kessler creaming himself over them in the August edition of HiFi News :rolleyes: He said that if he had the cash he'd seriously spend the £30K to get the required quantity of those cables.

You have GOT to be f*cking kidding me! Very few people's entire system costs £30K. In addition to which I don't care what they're made of and how they're made. It's just not possible for a cable to cost even remotely close to what they are charging so they are making money from old rope (almost literally).

I really would love to know who buys those kinds of cables and hear them describe how they are value for money :D

Michael.
 
I really would love to know who buys those kinds of cables and hear them describe how they are value for money
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I'd be amazed if anybody who bought those cables even contemplated any issue of 'value' when purchasing them, more to the point.
 
Originally posted by michaelab How the hell is one supposed to tell the difference then between a real change and a placebo effect? I think if I'd just gone out and spent £2K on a new CDP or other box I might very well, psychologically, want it to sound a lot better than what I had before so how can I tell if the change is real or not?
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What is real is supported by varifiable technical facts and can be scientifically proven.

[/QUOTE] [/i]Powerful things, human minds :) Michael. [/QUOTE]
Very true. Some would even say we live in a world of illusion!
 
Originally posted by BlueMax
What is real is supported by varifiable technical facts and can be scientifically proven.
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Er how:confused: Again are we talking about visual or aural measurements? Real improvements in hifi are confirmed by the listeners' ear/brain interface, not by an oscilloscope. So why the need for science?

And, on another track. Are five year olds happier knowing Father Christmas brings them presents and not knowing that they are going to die one day:confused:

I feel most manufacturers simply have to make a technological statement to pique interest amongst the techies that purchase hifi for hifi's sake. Speaker manufacturers, some at least, are probably different here, people generally buying their product because they have actually listened to them and like them. Valve amps are another, I mean most of them measure like dog t*rds on the bench but sound delightful to the ear. Again it's the ears that tell the truth.

It's just a shame many people can't get their head round that fact when discussing other elements of their system:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by michaelab I mean how the f*ck does Nordost get away with what they charge for their cables? Not to mention Siltech's "Signature" range: £11K for a 2m run of speaker cables or £5K for a 1m pair of single-ended ICs. I mean that has just got to be utter bollox :bub: It didn't stop Ken Kessler creaming himself over them in the August edition of HiFi News :rolleyes: He said that if he had the cash he'd seriously spend the £30K to get the required quantity of those cables.

I really would love to know who buys those kinds of cables and hear them describe how they are value for money :D
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I bet they will be bought by suckers who believe "you get what you pay for" and take pride in it!

I personally wil not buy hyped up stuff of any sort, even if I won the Lotto. The whole idea is vulgar and repulsive.

But sadly, there are some who will pay absurd sums to boost their fragile egos and with complete disregard to what such a sum can do to help the basic needs of fellow human beings.
 
And, on another track. Are five year olds happier knowing Father Christmas brings them presents and not knowing that they are going to die one day
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A quick poll...who wishes they were 5 again..?

Count me in!!
 
Originally posted by merlin
Er how:confused: Again are we talking about visual or aural measurements? Real improvements in hifi are confirmed by the listeners' ear/brain interface, not by an oscilloscope. So why the need for science?
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'Scientifically proven' does not necessarily mean the use of measuring instruments alone.

'Blind testing' whereby a panel of listeners do not know what product they are listening to is also scientific. It is one of the many techniques that may be used to get around the problem of 'Placebo Effect'.
 
If I was a five year old I will be in agreement with WM and RA
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If you were a five year old you would be listening to the Tweenies Greatest Hits from a mono tape recorder in the garden whilst you bounced on a trampoline....you would not give a damn about WM and even less about RA!!
 
Originally posted by BlueMax
'Blind testing' whereby a panel of listeners do not know what product they are listening to is also scientific. It is one of the many techniques that may be used to get around the problem of 'Placebo Effect'.
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Ah so when I noticed a dramatic reduction in drive, dynamics and presence when someone changed the mains lead on a Theta CD player, without me seeing would constitute be scientifically proven:confused:

In which case, adults really should be listening to WM and RA instead of erroniously dismissing the evidence;)
 
Originally posted by BlueMax
[B

'Blind testing' whereby a panel of listeners do not know what product they are listening to is also scientific. It is one of the many techniques that may be used to get around the problem of 'Placebo Effect'. [/B]
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Blue Max you are cj in a different skin :D

Blue max wrote ........

But sadly, there are some who will pay absurd sums to boost their fragile egos and with complete disregard to what such a sum can do to help the basic needs of fellow human beings.

You posted this twice now in the last 7 days, Do you feel the need to preach this all the Time?
You are right, a sum like that would help starving kids, battered wives, crime victims, war refugees.
A lot of wealthy people are that way, becasue the don't give it away, thats their part of human nature NOT yours, they'll burn in enternal damnation after they go, so why worry about THEIR faults.
Now your assuming they have fargile ego's, so your a Physcologist now, prehaps they just want to do spend there cash they way they want too, I'm not sticking up for them, yes some do have fargile ego's, but you can't tar them all with the same brush, righty or wronly it's their cash not ours :rolleyes:
I feel you are the one who has the problem/chip on shoulder about those who have maybe more finanical substance than most of us.
This is a hifi forum not a first year medical grad's common room :confused:
I'll let you into a little secret BM, When I was making a comtable living from my previous venture, Each year we (former Business) used to give £5k a year to local worthy causes and estabished chariities (Glos Air ambulance,Winstons Wish, CLIC, Cancer reasearch and RNIB), not for tax reasons, but because When I had my motorcycle accident, the air abulance saved my life (Just 25 months in hospital), and at that point I was in a postion to 'give something back', each year we'd but 5 names in ahat and the staff that worked for pulled out which 5 th charity recieved the funds. It doesn;t make me anymore or less of a human being than the next man, and I wasn't looking for ego enhancement, I just felt, I was in a postion to repay the debt in a small way.
Now £5k is small drop in the ocean to what is required, but it went towards to right way, also penuts to what some guys spend on hifi or cars or boats or house etc.
Yes the worlds balance is wrong, but every one must do some thing about it together.
So you have a problem with those that spend on hifi, whoopee fucking doo, I have a problem with low life scum/drug dealers and pediophiles/ miscarriadges of justice, and those that bleet about idiocycratic melodrama's, that they need to feed to keep their own inadaquieces at bay.
There are those that nothing sort of spending obsence anounts of money, will surfice, good luck to em' Like the Murphy's I'm Not bitter. WM
 

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