So Thorsten has broken cover ...

[Stereo Mic]

It means it isnt really neutral - it means it lacks life - confusion of two different senses of neutral. You should get them to listen to PMC

Now guess what these two musicians were talking about....

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

I was interested to hear a couple of well respected classical musicians describe a certain brand of monitor as "neutral to the point of sounding coloured". I know what they mean.

It wasn't M&K's was it? Filthy speakers.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Talking of light weight conesââ'¬Â¦ I don't think light is the ultimate goal for bass. You need it ridged as well. The cone in my Eminence 12ââ'¬Â drivers is very stiff and probably quite heavy (mms 75.3g) but the absolutely huge magnet still gives it a lot of control with a fast rise time. The cones damping is also important to the decay rate. In other words you need to strike a compromise!

75g is good for a 12", supravox have a superb 8" with only 10g of mms, very nearly used this for the Perceives.

I know what you mean about the stiffness, I had the 15" AV15 drivers with a heavy alu cone - it flexed more than the B&C's treated paper whilst weighing more, I think the concentric ridges do a fair amount for stiffness whilst not adding mass. Volts treated paper cone is fairly floppy which tallys well with my own listening impressions of slightly rounded.

Shin, for a driver with a near perfect impulse / step response look at the Manger Indeed, it is VERY dynamic.

Stick it on a baffle, mate it with the other driver(s) and plonk it in a room and by that point its all gone tits up though

Seriously though, its a unique driver, with its own set of strengths and like everything else, weaknesses.

Looking forward to hearing one in the future. Comments seem to range from ecstatic to luke warm thought never really bad. You'll have to let us know how you get on with that interesting setup your cooking. Certainly has a lot of potential.

 

[anon_bb]

I had a feeling you would say that! Of course musicians are the very worst people to judge hifi - its a well known fact.

 

[Tenson]

I was actually very surprised just how stiff the cone was and non-compliant the suspension on the Eminence drivers were. For a paper cone it is rather amazing!

The step response will of course go worse in room (all specs will) but that is no reason to not aim for a better one! As for mating it with a bass driver that won't mess it up very much if done right. You can have a look at the step response's of a few of Mangers own speaker systems from the PDF's on their website somewhere I think. The one with an active bass section for example.

Anyway just for a bit of interest here are the step response's of some common loudspeakers.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Non of those look particularly brilliant, although not much can be said because the time scale has been left out.

I don't normally post measurements as I'm constantly tweaking and they change as such, I also don't like to open myself up to the armchair designers who pick apart every little thing without even hearing it.

Here's the last one I took for the Perceives a couple of weeks ago:

Very good time alignment of the mid and treble courtesy of the DEQX and FIR filters The bass looks bad at first but in reality *every* loudspeaker will be similar or even worse.

BTW bub, compare this to the results measured for the ATC

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Losing the argument?

I lost the argument from the very first post I made that addressed you.

Let's quit poking the dead donkey, this got old yesterday.

 

[Tenson]

The time scale is 0.5 milliseconds per divide. Considering that, they are not as bad as they look. Your perceives look pretty good though! Quite a slow pressure equalisation but very smooth which is good. Where did you measure it from? close proximity or listening position? It looks pretty good so I'm guessing close?

Here is a Quad ESL:

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

The time scale is 0.5 milliseconds per divide. Considering that, they are not as bad as they look. Your perceives look pretty good though! Quite a slow pressure equalisation but very smooth which is good. Where did you measure it from? close proximity or listening position? It looks pretty good so I'm guessing close?

Here is a Quad ESL:

It was measured from approx. 2m away right where my head would normally be, so listening position. That's also with DRC enabled BTW coupled with the physical treatments. I've also measured one of the Percieves outside and the results are a fair amount better in the bass, so your seeing some room influence there.

The steep filters, good physical time alignment and loudspeaker time and amplitude correction and dogs bollocks cabinet maker are to thank for the nice step response

 

[Tenson]

I've also measured one of the Percieves outside and the results are a fair amount better in the bass, so your seeing some room influence there.

Yeah I realised that, the bass would still be influenced in near field assuming an omni mic. The good thing is that it has no swing back The phase alignment really shows itself. I'm surprised how well the B&W speakers do actually! While they are known to have high harmonic distortion they obviously have a good step response, for a standard speaker.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

I'm surprised how well the B&W speakers do actually! While they are known to have high harmonic distortion they obviously have a good step response, for a standard speaker.

Doubley so considering its passive.

 

[Stereo Mic]

Tenson, most of those speakers you posted are between 10 and 30 years old.

If you must post measurements that tell no one anything about whether they will enjoy the loudspeaker in their home, could you find something a little more current?

BTW I suspect you've already worked this out, but if you want a great impulse response you DEQ with a Manger. It will sound f***ing boring - but the graphs will look nice.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Tenson, most of those speakers you posted are between 10 and 30 years old.

If you must post measurements that tell no one anything about whether they will enjoy the loudspeaker in their home, could you find something a little more current?

Lets see one of yours then

I believe me and Simon were discussing them for what they are and not passing judgement on the loudspeakers. Although if I couldn't demo the speakers, I'd sooner base my purchasing decision on something like this rather than a review or a subjective opinion, on a fourm, from someone I didn't really know.

BTW I suspect you've already worked this out, but if you want a great impulse response you DEQ with a Manger. It will sound f***ing boring - but the graphs will look nice.

These aren't impulse response, they're step. There's a difference

I think Tenson is best equipped to make judgement. Why are you so concerned about this anyway? I've seen you bring it up 3 times now, we get your opinion.

We know you think it sounds flat/boring, if I or Simon came round to yours and had a listen who's to say we don't turn round and say "nah don't like it" either?

Lighten up. Its only speakers.

 

[Stereo Mic]

Lets see one of yours then

 

[penance]

Backtracking?

 

[Tenson]

Tenson, most of those speakers you posted are between 10 and 30 years old.

If you must post measurements that tell no one anything about whether they will enjoy the loudspeaker in their home, could you find something a little more current?

BTW I suspect you've already worked this out, but if you want a great impulse response you DEQ with a Manger. It will sound f***ing boring - but the graphs will look nice.

I was only posting the step responses for interest. They are hard to find!

From the listening so far, the Manger is anything but boring. It just makes you want to dance about the place!

 

[julian2002]

I'd sooner base my purchasing decision on something like this rather than a review or a subjective opinion, on a fourm, from someone I didn't really know.

you'd really buy something without hearing it for yourself? sorry but i might base my shortlist of things to listen to on someone else's recommendation or on measurements but i'd never stump up the cash without hearing the thing first (unless i knew i could shift it on for the price i paid or more on e-pay or hi-fi for sale etc.)

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

you'd really buy something without hearing it for yourself? sorry but i might base my shortlist of things to listen to on someone else's recommendation or on measurements but i'd never stump up the cash without hearing the thing first (unless i knew i could shift it on for the price i paid or more on e-pay or hi-fi for sale etc.)

Your taking what I said out of context though. Here's the whole sentence:

Although if I couldn't demo the speakers, I'd sooner base my purchasing decision on something like this rather than a review or a subjective opinion, on a fourm, from someone I didn't really know.

Emphasis on the bold part.

You can't always get demo's, home trails or whatever, sometimes you just have to buy unheared. Its something I do often because I buy drivers and build amps.

BTW aren't you the guy that bought and built the IPL's unheard?