Technics SL1200/1210 debate

sorry guys i miss the pint,!!!!!!!!!! what has all this has to do with the price of fish? was it not a thread on a famous t/t made by technics? 1200 in the late 70's with an sme arm capeable mount? mind bugles!
nando.

 

SDS Mat

I have recently aquired a 1210 mk 2 with fully modded OL 1 arm and Ortofon Rondo Bronze.
I have also managed to buy a used SDS mat.However,it is the standard size(295mm) and not the smaller one(285mm) specifically for the 1210.

It has improved the sound,probably because i have to have one speaker only 50cms away from deck,but am i gettting the full SDS"hit" with it sitting on the lip of the platter?

Phono stage is a trichord dino mk 2.
Is this good enough for the arm and cartridge?
Have seen a used Byston 0.5 preamp with built in phono. Would this be a worthwhile upgrade?
Amps are Arcam9/9p biamp into Ruark Icons.


Any other suggestions for new or used equipment?
I have between £500-£750 depending on the item that i upgrade.

 

You will definitely not be getting best results with a hard mat sitting on the platter lip. With a ringy metal platter such as that on the 1210 you'd wan't the mat sitting flat on the surface. The only exception would be a mat designed to afford some extra decoupling between the platter and vinyl.

IIRC the SDS is a heavy metal mat, so it would be interesting to see any effect on the Technics speed control circuits, since they wouldn't be expecting to see the altered load on the motor.

 

Mr Price has never commented on any downside due to extra weight and seems to believe it helps increase the fly wheel effect.............

 

He's unlikely to have measured it though.
Increasing the flywheel isn't necessarily better unless the motor drive electronics where designed for it.

Sometimes things are fine as supplied - the designers aren't as daft as the hobbyist fiddler community sometimes think

 

Which (if any) alternative mat would you suggest?

 

I'd be starting from the opinion that there is no perfect solution as all mats simply shuffle around the various ways in which the energy generated as the record plays is handled. Some will damp vinyl resonances more than others, they'll provide a more efficient energy path into the platter at different frequencies depending on design, and of course energy passes up through the TT and the mat will then be the interface coupling to the vinyl. In short - there are a wide variety of mat designs out there and all will sound different.

On the Technics I'd be experimenting with hard rubber, soft rubber (and synthetics), Cork and some of the new plastics designs like the Achromat. None of those will change the platter dynamics in the way that a much heavier metal mat might.

Felt is probably not a good idea as there is no damping of the metal platter.

There isn't really a 'best', but by the same token there's no reason to suspect that the supplied mat isn't perfectly ok.

 

The stock 1200 mat is very thick and heavy rubber, it will add a lot of rotational mass, or rather removing it for a lighter mat will dramatically reduce same. It must be getting on for a quarter inch thick. I've got one knocking around somewhere (just the mat, not a 1200).

Tony.

 

Amazing that, eh ;-)

 

How lovely to see this thread again.

 

I had a modded SL-1210 that has now been replaced by a very nice slate 20kg plinthed, gun metal arm boarded SP-10 MKII.

The SL-1210 is a good deck but it never would sound like the SP-10 imo.

Mind you I had not got the new uber 12X0 bearing but at £395 it's part way to a nice SP-10 and lets face it the 12X0 motor unit is never going to be as good etc.

I gave the SP-10 a very critical listen against the SL-1210 with my arm and cart on my system before deciding though.
It's the grip & timing that make the SP-10 stand out.
It's also calmer = less distortion? and with more pleasing subtle detail.

Now to find an even better tonearm I guess 12" as there's room, that will do the SPU Royal N justice. The Pioneer PL-71 (Acos customer) arm is very good though - As if the mat! The SP-10 rubber mat is dire!
I am looking at Fidelity Research FR 64, Schick and Saec.

Forgot to say - of course I have a PL-71 too. I rated the SL-1210 with the PL-71 arm and PL-71 mat on it as an improvement over the PL-71...
The PL-71 mat was a complete draw against the ~£300 copper mat that I borrowed for a few weeks.
The standard SP-10 mat is probably even worse than the SL-12X0 mat!

As for the techi platter lip problems I have a good engineering solution.

 

If you want to sell the PL-71 let me know.

 

Hehe - Using too much of it currently to sell it.

These pics tell the story

Mat was a complete draw against the £275-£300 copper jobbie.


PL-71 lid even works as off-line cover


close up of gun metal arm board / home made arm rest bolted into arm board.


Did you buy Gromit's PL-71?

 

Nice looking arm. Most of it looks identical to the R200 which i suppose is no surprise.
I've a fully working R200 (even the bias control works) and one day I'll try it in place of the RB1000 on the P9. Should make an interesting needledrop comparison - vintage v modern super-arm.

 

No, though he was asking a daft price, he could have got twice that and of course he got his hand bitten off. I am just collecting spare parts for them so what ever you don't use I will buy off you for spares.

BTW can you make another of those brass or gunmetal counterweights, obviously I will pay for it.

I get just a little fed up of everyone calling the PL-71 arm a Rega R200, it is not! as I am sure you have realised, and I wish someone would do a side by side to show it. It may share cosmetic charcteristics and parts but Jap inc has a habit of making for each other no matter what badge is on it, and if for a fellow Japanese company face dictates they are selected for the job, where as the foriegn devil can be sold all the lower standard stuff OEM. This applies to all Japanese stuff and they have produced gear that we can only dream about like the P3a for their home market. I have used the PL-71 arm and R200 in the past and they are just not the same beast. To the point where I have yet to find a better arm out of all I have tried in over 30 years than that PL-71 arm, and I have used many.

I can't agree with you about the SP10 as Cocosans one to me sounded dry and grey and was only saved by the magic cartridge, but from your observations that could have been partly the SME, which I have never liked. I also don't agree about the 1210 as a motor unit being better than the PL-71, but hey we are all individuals.

 

Richard, are they well specified internally and coping well with the passage of time?


Other than the motor, is there anything in the control/PSU electronics that cannot be replaced/serviced today?

 

They seem to be coping well. I had two that needed nothing doing and two that needed caps changing. Speedy Steve and one other I know about had to replace microswitches under the speed select buttons but they are standard and available.

They are too good just to let die and very few people realised how good they were/are. They came out at the time that the Linn flat earth bullshit was taking off and they also suffered from an import agent who just wanted high turnover products he could sell through the discounters like Comet and Lasky's and he pushed the PL12D like mad which was a very cheap and indifferent turntable.

My one as it was with the SPU at Scalford show.

 

If i had the money to upgrade my Technics SL 1200 MK2 i would do the following upgrades

buy a quality mat
change the tonearm (technics arm is like a Hummer army car)
change the feet
buy a new power supply as im sure this would help virtually eliminate hum
upgrade the cartridge wires
and buy a decent cartridge

I would agree that the SL1200 has remarkable build quality but not sound quality and would need to upgraded to improve the sound as its DJ deck not an audiophiles deck.

 

Why not buy a good turntable in the first place