Technics SL1200/1210 debate

Steven Toy said:
Tony, good cables need not be expensive. This is something I learnt late last year. My last cable upgrade netted me almost enough cash to pay for a linear PSU.
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Why did you buy the expensive cable in the first place?
 
Because they were the best I'd heard in the system I was using at the time for the money.

The cheap cables in my valve system turned out to be better still some two years later.

In comparison the Siltechs sounded a little compressed at the top end and dynamically flat.
Please note also that Mark Grant sent me different three sets of i/cs and I picked the ones with the word 'video' written on them.

My co-admin member made the same choice. OK, his wasn't a blind test but mine was because they all looked the same apart from the writing on them. The word 'video' was actually quite off-putting.

£20 a pair. The Siltechs were £400.
 
Anthony Matthews of Tube Distinctions has answered Paul Ranson's question a few pages back on AOS and has given me his permission to quote what he said here:

So, given you have a solid state front end, how does your system escape being continually grainy?
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hi steve,
i have just briskly run through this thread and what i will add has been totally over looked by those idiots on there, one of the main reasons why most transistor amps have that paticular "grainy" sound is because unlike valve amplifier circuitry that produces mainly low order harmonic distortion ie, usualy no higher than 2nd and 3rd order, most transistor amplifier circuitry produces low and high order odd harmonic distortion,ie, 3rd 5th 7th 9th and so on, and its the high order ODD harmonic distortion that we cant stand listening too for any length of time, in even very small amounts! this is one of the reasons transistor amplifier manufactureres try to get their over-all distortion ratings as low as they posibly can , its to try and eliminate even the smallest amount of these high order harmonics!!! also sometimes
when you put a valve circuit after a solid state circuit that is producing these high order harmonics, the valve [remember not being able to produce high order harmonics] will supress those high order harmonics and therefore can make the previous un-listenable circuitry sound well,,, listenable!therefore, valves have natural compresion and limiting characteristics, which give them the ability to re-produce sound in a way much closer to what we recognise in real life!
i am not a member of that forum so i cannot comment direct, but you can by all-means quote what i have written, it may help, but reading between the lines with some of these characters, i doubt it.
regards,anthony,TD...
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So, in summary, it does not matter if the front end is solid state if the the valves in the amp are unable to reproduce the high odd order distortion before it. This explains why Anthony's designs include solid state preamps and hybrid valve power amps with solid state driver stages and valve output stages as well as all-valve pre and power amps.

The grain we hear is not our imagination forming an association with sand, it is in fact high-order distortion.

Even very low measurable levels of high odd-order distortion are unpleasant to the ear. Higher (but still quite low) levels of low order harmonic distortion from valve amps are virtually inaudible to the ear.
 
Steven Toy said:
The grainy reference is not to silicon or sand, it is to sound. A picture can also be grainy but there is no sand.

Transistor amps are referred to as sand amps due to the use of silicon. It is only incidental that they also sound 'grainy' for want of a better word that avoids any reference to the material used.
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Audio reviewers have a lot to answer for.

A sound can't be 'grainy', though a picture can, if it's made from grains of rice on a background of sand.

There are good valve amps and bad valve amps. There are good transistor amps and bad transistor amps. I've heard several of the latter, but none that I would describe as 'grainy' or 'crunchy' or any other adjective that refers to tactile rather than audible sensations.
 
Steven Toy said:
Anthony Matthews of Tube Distinctions has answered Paul Ranson's question a few pages back on AOS and has given me his permission to quote what he said here:







So, in summary, it does not matter if the front end is solid state if the the valves in the amp are unable to reproduce the high odd order distortion before it. This explains why Anthony's designs include solid state preamps and hybrid valve power amps with solid state driver stages and valve output stages as well as all-valve pre and power amps.

The grain we hear is not our imagination forming an association with sand, it is in fact high-order distortion.

Even very low measurable levels of high odd-order distortion are unpleasant to the ear. Higher (but still quite low) levels of low order harmonic distortion from valve amps are virtually inaudible to the ear.
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Utter tosh Steven.

Get the SS circuit working correctly in the first place and there is no need to add a valve 'filter' to mask deficiencies.

As for high order distortion not sounding very nice, well that is hardly a revelatory finding now is it.
Good SS circuits suppress all distortion to levels that fall well well below audibility.
I note that your amplifier designer conveniently neglects to mention the distortions that tube electronics add while performing all this wonderful filtering.
 
Steven Toy said:
Rob, why did you go off valves?
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LOL

I haven't 'gone off valves' - see what happens when you read threads transported into a parallel universe and get the wrong end of the stick ;)

I have a valve phono stage, still own a valve amp (not in regular use now) and like a good few valve designs.

That does not mean I become blinkered to the limitations of valves or believe that they are inherently superior to solid state.
The valve amp I own (built in fact) is powerful, has low distortion, can drive real world speaker loads to realistic levels and uses a good amount of negative feedback. In other words, it performs very like a SS amplifier and I have stated that more times than I can remember.
I do not like valve amplifiers that measure poorly (because then by definition they are poor, and sound it) and I have no respect or time for SETs or other amplifiers that clearly bend and distort the signal they are amplifying. You may disagree and like the effect which is fair enough.

Slapping valves on the end of good SS circuits is plain bonkers IMO, unless of course you want the added distortions that brings.
However, you cannot then start going on about valuing signal purity and circuit simplicity, now can you?
Do you see the obvious conflict in the two positions?

BTW, well done on the cable. There is hope for you yet! ;)
 
Trouble is, no dealers can 'dem' this and those who've done the mod(s) aren't believed when they post their findings online!
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Personal testimony in the context of hype, fashion, and people hoping to make sales needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I'm just interested. I have an LP12 and an SP10, so I've no personal attachment to any view. I'd just like to know more about how turntables work and whether what is advocated for the SL12x0 is worthwhile.

If anybody has a surplus SL12x0 they'd let go for a modest sum, or even lend, we could do a forum investigation. Listening tests, which anybody can check out, and measurements. Both the whys and the wherefores.

There might even be material for a magazine article.

Paul
 
hi steve,
i have just briskly run through this thread and what i will add has been totally over looked by those idiots on there, one of the main reasons why most transistor amps have that paticular "grainy" sound is because unlike valve amplifier circuitry that produces mainly low order harmonic distortion ie, usualy no higher than 2nd and 3rd order, most transistor amplifier circuitry produces low and high order odd harmonic distortion,ie, 3rd 5th 7th 9th and so on, and its the high order ODD harmonic distortion that we cant stand listening too for any length of time, in even very small amounts! this is one of the reasons transistor amplifier manufactureres try to get their over-all distortion ratings as low as they posibly can , its to try and eliminate even the smallest amount of these high order harmonics!!! also sometimes
when you put a valve circuit after a solid state circuit that is producing these high order harmonics, the valve [remember not being able to produce high order harmonics] will supress those high order harmonics and therefore can make the previous un-listenable circuitry sound well,,, listenable!therefore, valves have natural compresion and limiting characteristics, which give them the ability to re-produce sound in a way much closer to what we recognise in real life!
i am not a member of that forum so i cannot comment direct, but you can by all-means quote what i have written, it may help, but reading between the lines with some of these characters, i doubt it.
regards,anthony,TD...
Click to expand...

It's clear that what you want isn't 'hifi' in any meaningful sense. Useful to know.

Paul
 
Steven Toy said:
Rob, I agree re. SETs and amps that measure badly. Mine measures well and is tested every now and then. A revalve is due at the end of the year.
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What do have in there at the moment?

Svets are good IMO.
Well made and reliable though at a small premium.
 
Joe said:
Oi! You disrespectin' my amp? <throws toys out of pram>
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:D

No, people like what like.
I just think it helps to understand why things sound as they do, the interactions at play in the system because it informs future choices

I just don't buy the simplistic 'valves are superior' argument, or things like SS sounds inherently grainy.
 
What do have in there at the moment?

Svets are good IMO.
Well made and reliable though at a small premium.
Click to expand...

I have Svets and they will probably be replaced with Svets. The Mullard GZ34 rectifiers and the Philips JAN 6SN7s are ok though, they don't need replacing.
 
This is what Anthony just wrote:

hi all,
well i have just looked in on ZG just to see where the conversation has led, and as i suspected what i allowed steve to quote me on has been taken mostly in a negative way, if these people think that i have spent all of my audio career making the same mistakes on valve and solid state design that so many continue to do so then they are very miss-guided indeed! two examples come to mind, the soul power amplifiers had a flat frequency range up to 220khz [ - 3db down point was over 1meg] but were later reduced to 120khz due to them being able to pick up certain radio stations! the soul-mate preamp has a flat frequency from 1hz to over 1meg.
i do not and never have used sticking plasters to cover up mistakes elsewhere in my circuit designs, the example i gave steve about using a valve stage after a solid state design was just that,,, an example of why it might make a badly designed solid state circuit sound listenable.
regards,anthony,TD...
Click to expand...
 
...also sometimes when you put a valve circuit after a solid state circuit that is producing these high order harmonics, the valve [remember not being able to produce high order harmonics] will supress those high order harmonics and therefore can make the previous un-listenable circuitry sound well,,, listenable!...
Click to expand...

This is clearly incorrect, experience or no experience.

Just because the valve isn't producing the high order distortion that doesn't mean it will not pass such distortion from the previous stages of the circuit.
You can of course build a filter using valves which is a different argument, but then you can build a filter without them, or transistors and op amps.
 
Oh Lordy!

Can I suggest we get swiftly back to Technics.

We need a standard deck and one that has been modified.
Then we need a couple of needle drops from each using the same cartridge (easy).

So, anyone have these decks?
 
Hi,

As I have said before, I have some technics SL1200. I was think of tweaking one up anyway. I was thinking of having a pair for the "Pie" show next year.

I may get the Time step power supplly to see if it does make a difference.

SCIDB
 
Steven Toy said:
Rob, I agree re. SETs and amps that measure badly. Mine measures well and is tested every now and then. A revalve is due at the end of the year.
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I am not aware of any reason why single ended triode amplifiers should have measurably more or less distortion than a push-pull amplifier.

Less powerful by and large...yes, more important to match to the right speaker to perform within the power envelope of the amplifier yes, I'd say that's true too.

If anyone has a technical explanation why SET amplifiers should measure worse than push-pull please feel free to start a new thread.

I asked the question to one of the engineers working on my prototype amp. Got a lot of ... 'depends on the implementation' and 'not that simple' and then some extremely complicated sentences !
 

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