Technics SL1200/1210 debate

Why did you buy the expensive cable in the first place?

 

Because they were the best I'd heard in the system I was using at the time for the money.

The cheap cables in my valve system turned out to be better still some two years later.

In comparison the Siltechs sounded a little compressed at the top end and dynamically flat.
Please note also that Mark Grant sent me different three sets of i/cs and I picked the ones with the word 'video' written on them.

My co-admin member made the same choice. OK, his wasn't a blind test but mine was because they all looked the same apart from the writing on them. The word 'video' was actually quite off-putting.

£20 a pair. The Siltechs were £400.

 

Anthony Matthews of Tube Distinctions has answered Paul Ranson's question a few pages back on AOS and has given me his permission to quote what he said here:

So, in summary, it does not matter if the front end is solid state if the the valves in the amp are unable to reproduce the high odd order distortion before it. This explains why Anthony's designs include solid state preamps and hybrid valve power amps with solid state driver stages and valve output stages as well as all-valve pre and power amps.

The grain we hear is not our imagination forming an association with sand, it is in fact high-order distortion.

Even very low measurable levels of high odd-order distortion are unpleasant to the ear. Higher (but still quite low) levels of low order harmonic distortion from valve amps are virtually inaudible to the ear.

 

Audio reviewers have a lot to answer for.

A sound can't be 'grainy', though a picture can, if it's made from grains of rice on a background of sand.

There are good valve amps and bad valve amps. There are good transistor amps and bad transistor amps. I've heard several of the latter, but none that I would describe as 'grainy' or 'crunchy' or any other adjective that refers to tactile rather than audible sensations.

 

Utter tosh Steven.

Get the SS circuit working correctly in the first place and there is no need to add a valve 'filter' to mask deficiencies.

As for high order distortion not sounding very nice, well that is hardly a revelatory finding now is it.
Good SS circuits suppress all distortion to levels that fall well well below audibility.
I note that your amplifier designer conveniently neglects to mention the distortions that tube electronics add while performing all this wonderful filtering.

 

Rob, why did you go off valves?

 

LOL

I haven't 'gone off valves' - see what happens when you read threads transported into a parallel universe and get the wrong end of the stick

I have a valve phono stage, still own a valve amp (not in regular use now) and like a good few valve designs.

That does not mean I become blinkered to the limitations of valves or believe that they are inherently superior to solid state.
The valve amp I own (built in fact) is powerful, has low distortion, can drive real world speaker loads to realistic levels and uses a good amount of negative feedback. In other words, it performs very like a SS amplifier and I have stated that more times than I can remember.
I do not like valve amplifiers that measure poorly (because then by definition they are poor, and sound it) and I have no respect or time for SETs or other amplifiers that clearly bend and distort the signal they are amplifying. You may disagree and like the effect which is fair enough.

Slapping valves on the end of good SS circuits is plain bonkers IMO, unless of course you want the added distortions that brings.
However, you cannot then start going on about valuing signal purity and circuit simplicity, now can you?
Do you see the obvious conflict in the two positions?

BTW, well done on the cable. There is hope for you yet!

 

Personal testimony in the context of hype, fashion, and people hoping to make sales needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I'm just interested. I have an LP12 and an SP10, so I've no personal attachment to any view. I'd just like to know more about how turntables work and whether what is advocated for the SL12x0 is worthwhile.

If anybody has a surplus SL12x0 they'd let go for a modest sum, or even lend, we could do a forum investigation. Listening tests, which anybody can check out, and measurements. Both the whys and the wherefores.

There might even be material for a magazine article.

Paul

 

It's clear that what you want isn't 'hifi' in any meaningful sense. Useful to know.

Paul

 

What do have in there at the moment?

Svets are good IMO.
Well made and reliable though at a small premium.

 

No, people like what like.
I just think it helps to understand why things sound as they do, the interactions at play in the system because it informs future choices

I just don't buy the simplistic 'valves are superior' argument, or things like SS sounds inherently grainy.

 

I have Svets and they will probably be replaced with Svets. The Mullard GZ34 rectifiers and the Philips JAN 6SN7s are ok though, they don't need replacing.

 

Not according to what Anthony wrote.

I have signature and avatar viewing turned off.

Paul

 

This is what Anthony just wrote:

 

This is clearly incorrect, experience or no experience.

Just because the valve isn't producing the high order distortion that doesn't mean it will not pass such distortion from the previous stages of the circuit.
You can of course build a filter using valves which is a different argument, but then you can build a filter without them, or transistors and op amps.

 

Oh Lordy!

Can I suggest we get swiftly back to Technics.

We need a standard deck and one that has been modified.
Then we need a couple of needle drops from each using the same cartridge (easy).

So, anyone have these decks?

 

The obvious person to do this is David Price. [Still shocked by what I've read this afternoon.]

 

Me too, had to have a lie down.

 

Hi,

As I have said before, I have some technics SL1200. I was think of tweaking one up anyway. I was thinking of having a pair for the "Pie" show next year.

I may get the Time step power supplly to see if it does make a difference.

SCIDB

 

I am not aware of any reason why single ended triode amplifiers should have measurably more or less distortion than a push-pull amplifier.

Less powerful by and large...yes, more important to match to the right speaker to perform within the power envelope of the amplifier yes, I'd say that's true too.

If anyone has a technical explanation why SET amplifiers should measure worse than push-pull please feel free to start a new thread.

I asked the question to one of the engineers working on my prototype amp. Got a lot of ... 'depends on the implementation' and 'not that simple' and then some extremely complicated sentences !